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News in Brief: Mrs. FDR Visits France.
News in Brief: Mrs. FDR Visits France. Mrs. F. D. Roosevelt pays a sentimental visit to this French town near the Belgian border, home of ancestral home of the Delano branch of the Roosevelt family. Crowds watch Eleanor exit car, greet people. A bunch of French children wave small American flags. Indoors, presentation of large document to Mrs. Roosevelt (whose face unfortunately is a little overexposed). VS Eleanor Roosevelt arriving at large old home.
News in Brief: New York City, World's Costliest Dress.
News in Brief: New York City, World's Costliest Dress. A $100,000 gown covered with 100,000 pearls and weighing 30 pounds, is modeled by film actress Gloria Swanson, during special charity showing for the Damon Runyon Fund for Cancer Research. Gloria is escorted by two police officers. She shows her lavish dress to a small group of guests and shows her pearl jewelry to the camera. Gloria lifts the pearl-studded skirt of the dress, then flexes one arm, making clear that the bejeweled outfit is heavy to lift.
News in Brief: Kid Fashions In Denmark.
News in Brief: Kid Fashions In Denmark. Cute Danish youngsters stage a colorful style showing, with the accent on youth. The tykes are all smiles as they strut their stylish stuff before delighted grownups. Runway fashion show. First some toddlers walk along, held in check with leashes (!). Then older kids model fashions including a dress, a raincoat, a cowboy outfit, and formal attire. For the finale the kids model sleepwear (nightgowns, pajamas, etc.) with some stuffed animals.
July 20, 1995 - Part 3
(12:10:33) Ms. BRAUN. That's correct. I wanted it left pretty much the way it was when Mr. Foster left. Senator BOND. It did not matter whether you were investigating a possible suicide, a possible murder or a possible conspiracy, You wanted to have that office kept as it was? Ms. BRAUN. Yes, sir. Senator BOND. You said in your testimony earlier that Mr. Watkins was getting off the telephone, Did he mention to you anything about to whom he had been speaking? Ms. BRAUN. No. Senator BOND. When you asked him to seal the office, was there any question in your mind that he did not know what that meant? Ms. BRAUN. No, he didn't ask me any questions regarding it. He just indicated that it would be done. Senator BOND. Did he indicate to you that he had just told his subordinate, in this case Patsy Thomasson, in fact, to go search that office? Ms. BRAUN. No. Senator BOND. He did not indicate in any way that this order was actually going to be violated before he could carry it out? Ms. BRAUN. No. 186 Senator BOND. Do you have any reason to mislead this Commit- tee or to make any statement about this matter that is not true? Ms. BRAUN. No, Sir. Senator BOND. This is part of your professional responsibility, to testify accurately to this information? Ms. BRAUN. Yes, sir. Senator BOND. Thank you, Mr, Chairman, The CHAIRMAN, Senator Murkowski. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR FRANK H. MURKOWSKI Senator MURKOWSKI, Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I note that this is the second anniversary of Vincent Foster's death today, which I think is rather revealing that we should be here on that anniversary. I want to make that observation. My questions are directed toward Major Hines. Do you recall Captain Hume using the word stonewalling, quote unquote? Mr. HINES. At some time-I don't know if it was Captain Hume or not, but I believe it was. He used the word that he was stone- walled, That was his perception. Senator MURKOWSKI. Do you know when that was? Mr. HINES. No, Senator, I don't. Senator MURKOWSKI. Whether it was the morning of July 22, 1993, or do you recall? Mr. HINES. I don't know the exact time. Senator MURKOWSKI. On July 22, 1993, was there a sense developing at the Park Service relative to some problems with the inves- tigation and that someone at the Department of Interior should be contacted? Mr. HINES. Yes, Senator. On July 22, 1993 or the evening of July 21, 1993, there was a feeling, in our perception, that we were not getting the cooperation that we felt we should have. Senator MURKOWSKI. Was there a person identified at the De- partment of Interior that should be contacted by name? Mr. HINES- Yes. The chief and I decided we should contact Tom Collier. Senator MURKOWSKI. Why was Mr. Collier suggested? Mr. HINES. He was Chief of Staff, and we felt he was the person that might give us the assistance or advice we may need. That was the purpose for us contacting him, for assistance or advice. Senator MURKOWSKI, Was that Chief Hume you're referring to? Mr. HINES. No, that's Chief Langston. Senator MURKOWSKI. Was there anything that Hume said to you, like, relative to the documents, like you're not letting us see the documents? Was that something you recall? Mr. HINES. Yes, I recall that. Senator MURKOWSKI. Can you elaborate a little further? Mr. HINES. Captain Hume explained that when they went into the office, that they were not allowed to see any of the documents that the Chief of Staff handled all of the documents and deter- mined whether they would see them or whether they would be pri vate documents we would see later and would be released to the Foster family attorney. 187 Senator MURKOWSKI. Did you meet with Mr. Collier, along with Chief Langston, about July 22, 1993, the same day'? Mr. HINES. On July 22, 1993, in the late afternoon of July 22, 1993, we did meet for about 5 or 10 minutes, Senator MURKOWSKI. Do you recall the substance of that meet- ing? Mr. HINES. We gave him a heads-up that we proceed-that we had some problems, and he said keep him apprised. Senator MURKOWSKI. When you say you're having some problems, would you elaborate? Mr. HINES. Elaborate. Just on the cooperation, and that we hadn't been in the office to examine the office at this time, and we told him a little bit about the scene, that we were fairly sure, preliminarily, that we thought it was a suicide. Senator MURKOWSKI. Did you tell him you had been unable to search the room?
July 20, 1995 - Part 3
(12:15:45) Mr. HINES. At the first meeting we had been unable to search the room, Senator MURKOWSKI. You told him that? Mr. HINES. Yes. Senator MURKOWSKI. What was his response? Mr. HINES, He said to keep him apprised of the situation and he would look into the matter. Senator MURKOWSKI, It was just a matter of fact; you made the statement, and he acknowledged that he would search Mr. HINES. He acknowledged. Senator MURKOWSKI. Did there come a time when you were advised that Hume and Markland were allowed to actually enter Vince Foster's office? Mr. HINES. Yes, they entered the office the next day. Senator MURKOWSKI. Were others there then, do you know? Mr. HINES. From their reports there were others. They initially didn't tell me the others. Senator MURKOWSKI. This was 2 days after Foster's death? Mr. HINES. Yes, it was. Senator MURKOWSKI, That was the first time the Park Service was in that office? Mr. HINES. Yes, Senator, that was the first time the Park Police were in the office. Senator MURKOWSKI. In spite of the direction by the Park Service to David Watkins to seal the office, and that direction was given by the Park Service Police, that direction clearly resulted in you, representing the Park Service Police, not getting in there for 2 days? Mr. HINES. Senator, when we say direction, when the U.S. Park Police, a Subunit in the Department of Interior-we requested, I think was the word we used to seal that office. I don't think we have 'authority to direct anyone in the White House to seal an office. Senator MURKOWSKI. Do you recall any reports from Hume and Markland with regard to their visit to Mr. Foster's office? Mr. HINES. I recall the report, yes. Senator MURKOWSKI. Can you elaborate? What do you recall? 188 Mr. HINES. I recall what I have previously said, that they did not see any documents at all, that Mr, Nussbaum controlled all of the examinations of the documents. Senator MURKOWSKI. I would assume "control" means Mr. Nussbaum, what, did he conduct the search in your opinion? Mr. HINES. He would look through a document, say this is either lawyer material or this is personal matters, and put them in little stacks. Senator MURKOWSKI. My last question. Mr. Hines, I believe you testified that you thought the Park Police would have found Mr. Foster's note if you had been allowed to search the office without interference; is that correct? Mr. HINES. I believe we would have found the note in the briefcase, yes. Senator MURKOWSKI. In fact-and I'm quoting from a conversation you had with Captain Hume which you related to us during your deposition. I quote: When I talked to Captain Hume in relation to this, I said we would have found the note because we would have been looking in the office and found his briefcase, and he said, 'Yeah, our oldest, blindest detective would have found the note,' which is true. If it had been in the briefcase the morning that we were in there and we would have looked into it, we would have found it. I see you agreed with his assessment. I assume you do today. Mr. HINES. Yes, Senator, had we looked into that briefcase, I'm confident that any one of our detectives would have found the note in the briefcase. Senator MURKOWSKI. Mr. Hines, you also stated in your deposition that the Chief of Staff of the Park Police received the note via the Justice Department 30 hours after the White House discovered it. When asked what you knew about the process of the note being turned over, you stated "they,"' I assume the White House, "had a lot of high-powered people to decide to release the note to the Park Police." Wasn't the Attorney General the one who ultimately told the White House to turn it over to the Park Police? Mr. HINES. From the reports I have read, that is my understanding. Senator MURKOWSKI. Having taken 30 hours to produce that note, would you consider that to be interference with your investigation? Mr. HINES. I would not call it interference. I think they were very cautious in their release of the note, though. Senator MURKOWSKI. I would refer to your deposition, but I'll conclude. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator. Senator SARBANES. Senator Bryan. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR RICHARD H. BRYAN Senator BRYAN. Thank you very much, Senator Sarbanes. I'd like to make a preliminary observation and compliment each of you not only in terms of what you did on the evening in question and the events that followed that, but on your very professional demeanor, I think the American people watching your testimony can feel very proud that they have some very dedicated professionals who are called in under very difficult circumstances to make some decisions 189 and judgments about how to handle a tragic suicide of a high-ranking public official in the White House. Mr. HINES. Thank you, Senator.
July 20, 1995 - Part 3
(12:20:44) Senator BRYAN. I'd like to get a little bit more of a feel from Sergeant Braun and Detective Rolla. When you went into the Foster home that evening, my understanding is the two sisters were there, Mrs. Foster and the daughter, Laura, I believe the name was, was there; am I correct? Ms. BRAUN. Yes, sir. Mr. ROLLA. Yes, sir. Senator BRYAN. I guess it never gets any easier relating some tragedy of this magnitude to a personal family member? Mr. ROLLA. No. Senator BRYAN, Tell me how, in your own mind, you were going to communicate this to the family. Mr. ROLLA. We thought about different ways to put it, but you think about it, but until you're in a situ ation--every situation ends up being different. So I just came up with the most matter of fact way to say it, by being sensitive but not leaving a question that her husband was dead. Senator BRYAN. I suppose the thought runs through your mind, I wish somebody else was on duty tonight, relaying this kind of information? Mr. ROLLA. Boy, I wish somebody else was on duty that night. Senator BRYAN. In more ways than one, I'm sure. Sergeant Braun, is that essentially your feeling, too, as you were traveling out to the Foster home? Ms. BRAUN. As a matter of fact, John and I discussed it on the way, Usually the direct approach is the best way and, basically, that's the approach that John used. It's not that we were trying to just dig out information. I mean, we were trying to be somewhat sensitive to the needs of the family, and that's why we had agreed to allow Mr. Watkins and his wife to go with us for the notification. But, in turn, we still had a job to do. Senator BRYAN. You had lots of thoughts, I'm sure, tumbling through your mind as you're traveling out there about what you're going to do and how you're going to handle it. I have a lot of empathy for you. I wouldn't want that kind of a job, quite frankly. _You indicated, Sergeant Braun, that there were many things that you were doing, priorities that you had. I think in response to Senator Boxer's question you indicated with respect to the request to seal the office, that that was not uppermost in your mind in terms of the kinds of things that you were doing. I believe the record reflects that as you were dictating your after-action report, that particular request was not included in your report, if I recall? Ms. BRAUN. That's correct. My report, basically, just dealt with what I did at the scene. It really did not go into what I did at the home. John's report indicated what went on with the notification, and I probably should have done a separate report myself, but I didn't feel like duplicating what was being done. Senator BRYAN. I don't offer that in any criticism at all, just to try to get, basically, your state of mind at the time, Pin also led to believe, from reading the background information that was provided, that at the time, 2 years ago, there really was not an inves- 190 tigative manual that the department had that outlined all of the things that one ought to do with respect to an investigation involv- IV_ ing suicide. Ms. BRAUN. That's correct. Senator BRYAN. And that after this event-obviously, we all benefit from the experience of hindsight-that, subsequent to this'. event, there was a manual prepared that, in part, included how one handles a suicide investigation. Am I correct on that? Ms. BRAUN. That's correct. Senator BRYAN. any of the three of you have the opporturuty to comment or make suggestions or to any way participate in the database, for lack of a better term, as to what ought to be included in that manual? Ms. BRAUN. One of our most senior detectives in the office Wrote the manual and, of course, after this event occurred, there was a. lot of discussion in the office. I'm sure that was all taken into consideration when the manual was written. Senator BRYAN. Am I correct in terms of sequencing, the manual, is published after the events of July 1993? Ms. BRAUN. Yes, it was. Just for a little more, background, the office contained a number of senior-still does contain a number of senior detectives with 20-plus years on, that could retire tomorrow" and they felt the need to get some of this information down because of the situation that John and I had, where we both were very new' into the office and were thrown into a situation. So that would allow other people to have a checklist to go through and make sure that everything was done the way it was supposed to be done.
Korea: U.N. Planes Hammer At Red Supply Lines.
Korea: U.N. Planes Hammer At Red Supply Lines. With the truce negotiations bogging down, United Nations planes continue their relentless strafing of Communist positions behind the front lines. 'Mustangs' ride herd on the Reds. Just 400 yards behind the lines, new replacements celebrate mass before the ordeal of battle. Air to air shot of planes. Various aerial view from planes of explosives (?) hitting snowy landscapes. Some anti-aircraft fire is seen from the ground. Meanwhile, a priest leads troops (soldiers) in mass, kneeling in prayer. At least one of the soldiers might not be Catholic because he looks unsure of how to make the sign of the cross. Holy communion (Eucharist).
July 20, 1995 - Part 3
(12:25:32) Senator BRYAN. By the way, I compliment the department on that, That makes a lot of sense. You have experience. Your people gain some insight into some things, and you make some changes, in updating your procedures, and your manual is updated. I think that makes a lot of sense. I note that, with respect to the manual as it relates to suicide,' there is an entry in there called "place of employment." Let me just !A read that for you because I think it bears out your own evaluation' in terms of the priorities, Sergeant Braun and Detective Rolla. It goes on to say, and I'm quoting: For a complete and comprehensive investigation, ion, an investigator shall visit the place of employment of the deceased. It may be necessary to interview friends and co-workers to determine unusual behavior or mood changes of the victim. When conducting interviews of the place of employment, the investigator shall organize the on-site activities with the supervisor at that location. While talking with the supervisor, a request shall be made to examine the victim's workplace. This should be done in a dignified, unobtrusive manner. I don't think any of us could quarrel with that, but I do note in looking at the manual prepared after the event, that at no place does it indicate that it ought to be sealed or locked anyway. Am I correct in reaching that conclusion, Sergeant? Ms. BRAUN. Yes, you are. Senator BRYAN. Which I think makes the point that you're making, that there are other priorities in conducting these kinds of investigations and, frankly, that wasn't one of the priorities you had. In terms of the kind of information that you were looking for, the office, I gather that you really were not interested in the work product of the office- that is what was occurring wit respect to re- 191 viewing prospective applicants for appointment to various positions in the Federal Government or any of the national security files or anything of that sort. You were looking for some kind of demonstrable evidence indicating that hey, there was a suicide note or something that would bear on the suicide investigation. Let me just ask the three of you if that's not a correct analysis? Ms. BRAUN. Yes, we were looking for personal information that would verify that Mr. Foster's state of mind was one to commit suicide. Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. Senator BRYAN. Major Hines? Mr. HINES. That's correct. Senator BRYAN. That's all the questions I have. I would yield back the time to counsel, if counsel wanted to-Mr. Ben-Veniste. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Thank you, sir. Just to follow up on the point which was made, the manual relating to suicide investigations was prepared principally by Detective Rayfield; is that correct? Ms. BRAUN. Yes, sir. Mr. ROLLA. It was circulated through the office afterwards for comments. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. It was circulated around? Mr. ROLLA. Yes, it was. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Detective Rayfield was a very experienced investigator who had the confidence of everyone in the office; is that correct? Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Could we put on the screen Exhibit 16 from the Park Police? A hard copy has been provided to each of you. That is, in fact, the manual which includes the collective experience and wisdom of your best investigators concerning what kind of procedures to be used under such circumstances, is that correct? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Mr. BEN-VENISTE, As Senator Bryan has pointed out, what you do in connection with a normal situation in a workplace investigation is to secure the cooperation of the people who worked together with the decedent to try to find out whether they have seen any papers or can provide you with any information that would be helpful; is that right? Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. It has nothing to do with actually scaling a place of employment or locking it up or otherwise barring others from entering; correct? Mr. ROLLA, No, the manual does not. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. It does not. The distinction is obviously made between the scene of a death and a workplace investigation related to a suicide that occurs in a different location; is that correct? Mr. ROLLA. That's correct,
Personalities In The News
Personalities In The News. Joe DiMaggio - N.Y. Yankees' great centerfielder retires from baseball after 13 seasons with the ball club. DiMaggio poses in front of large illustration of Yankee Stadium, with his baseball mitt (glove) outstretched. Joe shakes hands with three men including Casey Stengel. A group of newsreel cameramen and sound recordists work at the event. Dick Kazmaier, Princeton's All-American backfield ace, receives Heisman trophy, along with other awards for his gridiron prowess. The football star receives his award. Close shot of Heisman trophy. General Douglas MacArthur - the general receives Salvation Army citation for his devotion to duty and adherence to Christian principles. Macarthur, in civvies (suit and tie), receives his award in front of Salvation Army logo.
Air Disaster: Second Worst in U.S. History Takes 56 Lives.
Air Disaster: Second Worst in U.S. History Takes 56 Lives. The second worst air disaster in U. S. history takes the lives of fifty-six passengers and crew, when a C-46 non-scheduled airliner falls in flames shortly after take-off from Newark. The huge craft narrowly missed plummeting into congested city streets. Night. Various shots of the wreckage and rescue workers at the site. Removing a body. Day, more scenes of the twisted metal. Damage to nearby house.
News in Brief: Washington, Barkleys Back From Orient.
News in Brief: Washington, Barkleys Back From Orient. Vice President Alben Barkley and his wife return home by air during blizzard, with hopes high for armistice in Korea. The 'veep' toured front lines to get his first-hand impressions of war. The Barkleys get off plane, walk into snowy weather. The VP speaks at press conference, says he feels optimistic about a truce despite what he says was haggling on the part of the other side.
News in Brief: Helicopter Gets Award
News in Brief: Helicopter Gets Award President Truman presents Collier Aviation Award to civilian and military leaders responsible for development of the helicopter, which craft has done yeomen work in rescue operations in Korea. Posing for the camera at the presentation are President Harry S. Truman, Defense Secretary Robert Lovett, helicopter industry man Igor Sikorsky, and Vice Admiral Merlin O'Neill. Big trophy.
July 20, 1995 - Part 3
(12:30:20) Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Finally, with respect to your experience in investigating suicides, Sergeant Braun, how many suicides had you investigated prior to July 20, 1993? Ms, BRAUN. I had done one prior. 192 Mr. BEN-VENISTE. One prior. In that case, I trust the workplace was not sealed? Ms. BRAUN. The workplace wasn't relevant. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. In your collective experience, including Major Hines', I trust there has been no example of a workplace being sealed or requested to be sealed where that workplace was not the scene of the death; is that correct? Mr. HINES. That's correct. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. You've talked to your colleagues at the Park Police, and that is a uniform conclusion, is it not? Mr. ROLLA. I believe so. Mr. HINES, Yes, it is. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. So, essentially, when you were going to the White House, you were looking for the cooperation of individuals, there to help you along with your investigation to look for the lim- ited types of materials that you've described here; correct? Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. The only thing about this request of the Counsel's Office to the White House was that this wasn't a normal workplace at all. It was filled with lawyer's files and, indeed, the files of the lawyer to the President of the United States; correct? Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. Mr. HINES. That's correct. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. You didn't expect or would have expected that you would be able to look through all of those files; is that correct? Ms. BRAUN. That's correct. Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. There's no way that you wanted to do that? Ms. BRAUN. No. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. I have nothing further. (12:32:15)(tape #10117 ends)
July 20, 1995 - Part 4
(13:00:36) Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. In any event, 30 minutes after you made that request, the office was locked. By the next morning at 10 a.m., there was a guard posted. By 11 a.m. the next day, the next morning, July 21, 1993, the day after, there was a locksmith brought in and the locks were changed. The Secret Service record has it? Yeah, yeah, so we can go through-these were not things you were party to. I'm not suggesting you were, but I'm trying to get to the sense of the timing of all of this. In hindsight, it seems like all of this was drawn out over a long period of time, but really what we're talking about were conversations that happened in a narrow window of time and that may have zipped by in ways that may not have been-that may not now seem to be all that evident. But the Secret Service record does show at 11:41 that the office was secured. Again, I said I was going to be brief, so I'm going to try to ask one other little question, and that's of you, Mr. Hines. In your report-I'm going to read a sentence to you that comes out of your report that was-this is a supplemental criminal incident report, a record that was done the day after. It doesn't say on here when it was written. It just says the day of the incident. In any event, what you said here was, "Originally, we had responded to the White House on Wednesday morning, July 21, to examine his office." This is yours; right? This says Investigator Hines." This could not be his. I don't know, based on what I see here. Is that Mr. Hines? Oh, it's Captain Hume. Mr. Hines, I take it back . This is not you. It's Captain Hume, so I guess I'll have to ask the question of him. I was going to ask the question what did he mean 203 by 44 originally, we responded to the White House on Wednesday morning," because it sounds like there were efforts made to try to lock things down. I don't have any further questions, except to say that based on everything I've heard, I have a sense that you guys did everything you could do under the circumstances at the time. With the benefit of hindsight, do you think at the time, based on your knowledge at the time, how you saw things when these things were going on, do you feel that you did what you thought was the right thing to do, the proper thing to do, the police personnel thing to do at the time that this incident occurred? Ms. BRAUN. Yes, we did what we had to do. Mr. ROLLA. Yes, I believe so. Mr. HINES. Yes. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Thank you very much. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sarbanes. Mr. ROLLA. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. Can we take a 5-minute break? The CHAIRMAN, I believe we're very close to wrapping up, and I want to keep it going. If you wish to be excused for 5 minutes yourself, certainly, you may do so, and if anybody wants to ask you questions, we'll come back to you. OK? ( Mr. ROLLA. Thank you. Senator SARBANES. Senator Simon.
News in Brief: Hawaii, "Junk Lady Of The Navy.'
News in Brief: Hawaii, "Junk Lady Of The Navy.' Lt. Elizabeth Stover of the WAVES certainly earns the title, for she is charged with selling millions of dollars worth of Navy surplus - from shoes and ships to sealing wax. Woman working at desk, then sorting through items along with a few men. Naval ship junkyard; Stover (in her WAVES uniform with skirt) points out what to sell while men take notes. Working woman, war work.
News in Brief: France, Modern Scalp Treatment.
News in Brief: France, Modern Scalp Treatment. "A new fad in gay paree is the 'mohican haircut' - a scalp job just like the Indians used to do. When the barber gets through with these 'young bucks' - they're ready for the warpath." Very ordinary-looking hair salon/ barbershop. Young man sits down and gets what would later be known as a Mohawk haircut. (I guess there is nothing new under the sun.) Other customers sit and wait, one looks at photo of Native American (?) in a book. Two teenage boys show off their new hairstyles. Another waiting patron looks disapprovingly away, back to the newspaper he's reading. One of those wacky trends of crazy youth. Ahead of their time, pioneers.
Goodwill Envoys: Embassy Children Bring New Year Greeting.
Goodwill Envoys: Embassy Children Bring New Year Greeting. Here's a cheery New Year greeting, from scores of youngsters dressed in their native costumes. Children of embassy officials from many lands, they extend season's greeting to the children of America. Those who speak include representatives from Mexico, Cuba, Italy, Guatemala, Norway (some speak first in their native tongue, then in English). Cute. Then all shout in unison, "Happy New Year From All of the World!"
1951: Year of Stalemate.
1951: Year of Stalemate. (1951 Highlights - most or all of these exist in longer form within our library)
July 20, 1995 - Part 4
(12:30:01)(tape # 10118 begins) Mr. ROLLA, No, the manual does not. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. It does not. The distinction is obviously made between the scene of a death and a workplace investigation related to a suicide that occurs in a different location; is that correct? Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. (12:30:20) Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Finally, with respect to your experience in investigating suicides, Sergeant Braun, how many suicides had you investigated prior to July 20, 1993? Ms, BRAUN. I had done one prior. 192 Mr. BEN-VENISTE. One prior. In that case, I trust the workplace was not sealed? Ms. BRAUN. The workplace wasn't relevant. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. In your collective experience, including Major Hines', I trust there has been no example of a workplace being sealed or requested to be sealed where that workplace was not the scene of the death; is that correct? Mr. HINES. That's correct. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. You've talked to your colleagues at the Park Police, and that is a uniform conclusion, is it not? Mr. ROLLA. I believe so. Mr. HINES, Yes, it is. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. So, essentially, when you were going to the White House, you were looking for the cooperation of individuals, there to help you along with your investigation to look for the lim- ited types of materials that you've described here; correct? Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. The only thing about this request of the Counsel's Office to the White House was that this wasn't a normal workplace at all. It was filled with lawyer's files and, indeed, the files of the lawyer to the President of the United States; correct? Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. Mr. HINES. That's correct. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. You didn't expect or would have expected that you would be able to look through all of those files; is that correct? Ms. BRAUN. That's correct. Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. There's no way that you wanted to do that? Ms. BRAUN. No. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. I have nothing further. (12:32:15)(tape #10117 ends) The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hines, on the night of July 20, 1993, you got a phone call at approximately 9:45 informing you of the Foster death; is that correct? Mr. HINES. That's correct, Senator. The CHAIRMAN. Who called you from the Park Police? Mr. HINES. Lieutenant Gavin. The CHAIRMAN. Lieutenant Gavin called you and suggested that you make contact with people at the White House? Mr. HINES. Yes, he did. The CHAIRMAN. You called a Mr. Burton? Mr. HINES. Yes, I did. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Burton is the assistant to Mr. McLarty, the Chief of Staff of the White House? Mr. HINES. That's my understanding. The CHAIRMAN. You testified in your deposition that he was obviously shocked and upset, you could tell Mr. HINES. I could tell on the phone that he was very upset. The CHAIRMAN. He told you of the close relationship-because you didn't realize it at the time-and what Mr. Foster's position was in the Administration? Mr. HINES. Yes, he did. The CHAIRMAN. His relationship with the President? Mr. HINES. Yes, he did. 193 The CHAIRMAN. Then you go on, on page 29, and you say--I want to verify whether this is correct, if your memory is still as you gave in the deposition. I will read to you. You were telling him, "One of the things we would need to do is to look into his office," meaning Mr. Foster's office, "for any evidence of motive that we might find for a suicide like a suicide note or any other items." Then you continue, "We have a certain protocol, investigation of suicides that we look for. I told him that he would need to have his offices secured for those reasons." Did you tell him that? Mr. HINES. Yes, I did, The CHAIRMAN, Is that correct? Mr. HINES. That's correct. The CHAIRMAN. You remember having told him that, you remember having testified to that in your deposition? Mr. HINES. Yes, I do. The CHAIRMAN. That is correct and true? Mr. HINES. Yes, it is. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Chertoff. Senator Grams, excuse me. Senator GRAMS. I had one question. I'd like to make a clarification in response to some questions that Senator Dodd had asked and also Minority counsel. They tried to talk about the sealing of the office, how it all of a sudden wasn't important in your minds. I think he said by the next morning you had assessed in your opinion that this was a suicide, and sealing the office, in your mind at that time, was not as important. I think you both responded yes, although Mr. Hines had testified until this is concluded, certainly, and all evidence is in that it was a suicide, all areas should be considered as if a crime scene were involved. Would you agree with that, that even the next morning, while the assumption was this was a suicide, all the information had not been in, and so the office still should have been considered an area that should have been sealed? Mr. ROLLA. No, I don't agree with that. Senator GRAMS. You think the next morning, that the information you had was enough to say that this was a suicide?
July 20, 1995 - Part 4
(12:35:21) Mr. ROLLA. Well Senator GRAMS. That the office was not important and the integrity of the office was not important? Mr. ROLLA. Let me say this: Whether that was a homicide or a suicide, that wasn't a crime scene. That's a secondary scene, not a crime scene. We have no legal authority to tell anyone to seal an office. If we wanted to get in to look for evidence, we would need a search warrant, and we'd have to come up with enough probable cause to get a search warrant. The request to seal the office, which he told me-in my mind is why it's not written in the report, is an informal request for cooperation to go to the workplace. Because Mr. Foster, being who he is in the White House, we knew we were not going to be able to go in there that night. Our limited scope--again, what we want to look for, the higher-ups are going to have to be there, there's going to have to be protocol done to figure out how to go about this. No, we don't want to read every legal document, but we would like to look through obvious areas and maybe look through some 194 drawers and the briefcase for, not just a suicide note, was there anything there, other reasons, a diary, a letter, something that could have caused embarrassment, something--not looking to embarrass the man, but trying to find mental-his state of mind at the time. Senator GRAMS. I did infer that you were ordering, but I was asking if it was still important and if it was important enough to try to secure that area so it wouldn't have been "contaminated" as you stated earlier? Mr. ROLLA. No, it was important to try to maintain it. Again, if somebody went in there because they had to do things related to his job, we have no authority to keep them out. If somebody went in there and removed things, that's beyond us. Senator GRAMS. Mr. Hines, would you agree with that? Mr. HINES. Senator, I'd agree with that. The reason the examination of the room-and I'll use "examination" as opposed to "search" because we're looking for limited information that might lead us to believe that his suicide-to prove that he had intent. The reason it's important is the person's office is a work space; it tells a lot about him. So if we could normalize him and find out how he conducted his business, was he neat? If he was neat and it was messy, that would be a piece of information we'd want to know. The office itself is a piece of information, and that's why we wanted it secure. If you noticed, our guideline manual was published after this suicide, and we do say we would be very unobtrusive in searching his office, and we would have been. We're looking for a note of suicide, we're looking for any information of any difficulty he may be having that would make him so discouraged that he would take his own life. Our only factor in this investigation is that we feel that we had a complete investigation. The only problems we've had is the conduct of the examination of that office. I would like to use the term "examination" and not the term "search" because when I say "search," I'm thinking of Fourth Amendment searches and, definitely, that was not our intent in this case. Senator GRAMS. One quick question, Sergeant Braun Ms. BRAUN. Could I also answer that first question? Senator GRAMS. Sure. Ms. BRAUN. Since I am the one who spoke to Mr. Watkins' it was a request. It wasn't an order, and maybe the terms are getting all blown out of proportion. Secured-I've said it meant secured, closed, et cetera. I wanted to try to preserve that office in the state that it was. This isn't a perfect world. It didn't happen. It isn't the end of the world that it didn't happen, but, yes, that would have given us some insight, if people had not gone in and gone through the office, as to what kind of state it was in when Mr. Foster left and some indication as to his state of mind when he left. That's what I was looking for, Senator GRAMS. Do you think the White House or those that were requested did an appropriate job in making sure that was done? Evidently not. Ms. BRAUN. Like I said, it's not a perfect world. Senator GRAMS. I wanted to ask one other thing in regards to what Minority counsel had mentioned about the manual on suicide 195 printed afterwards, and the office or work space was not as important, I think, was the line of questioning he was trying to infer. Does that suicide manual refer to an office of a high-level member of the White House staff inside the White House? This is a completely unique situation, and that manual did not refer to the office of Vince Foster as not being important. Ms. BRAUN. That's correct. Senator GRAMS. Thank you. Senator DODD. Mr, Chairman, this is unclear. I thought earlier the issue of whether or not the office I think our colleague from Minnesota mentioned that the office was part of the crime scene, and there's no-you don't agree with that, that office was not in any way, whatsoever, part of a crime scene? The CHAIRMAN. I think the record is pretty clear. Senator GRAMS. We had established that before. The CHAIRMAN. The importance of the office related to, at that point in time, what appeared to be a suicide. There's no doubt. It's not a crime scene, but I think the record amply attests to that. Senator, have you concluded?
July 20, 1995 - Part 4
(12:40:35) Senator GRAMS. Yes, thank you. The CHAIRMAN. We have several minutes. Three minutes. Mr. Chertoff. Mr. CHERTOFF. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Major Hines, am I correct from what you just said that you regard the office itself, including where everything is placed, whether it's neat or messy, where things are arranged, what the last thing looked at on the desk was-you look at all of that information in the office as evidence; correct? Mr. HINES. That would be evidence and information that we would need in a suicide to determine a person's state of mind, and then we would ask questions. We would have to combine these with interviews with employees that he worked with. Mr. CHERTOFF. So the very condition of the office itself is an important piece of information; correct? Mr. HINES. Very important piece of information. Mr. CHERTOFF. Sergeant Braun, I take it on the day of July 20, 1993 or the night of July 20, 1993, when you asked to have the office secured, you were using your best judgment, that going in there and looking at that information and evidence was important to you; correct? Ms. BRAUN. That's correct. Mr. CHERTOFF. You didn't order anybody to do it; right? Ms. BRAUN. No, I did riot. Mr. CHERTOFF. You made a request for cooperation; correct? Ms. BRAUN. Yes, I did. Mr. CHERTOFF. Is it common in your experience when you deal with people who are witnesses or who have some involvement in an investigation that you want their cooperation? Ms. BRAUN. Yes, sir. Mr. CHERTOFF. Did Mr. Watkins indicate to you that he would refuse to cooperate? Ms. BRAUN. No. Mr. CHERTOFF. He told you he would cooperate? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. 196 Mr. CHERTOFF. The reason you wanted that office secured-not with a lot of tape, but locked so that no one could get into it-was to prevent people from rummaging, moving things, opening things, packing things away; correct? Ms. BRAUN. That is correct. Mr. CHERTOFF. You didn't get your request adhered to; isn't that also correct? Ms. BRAUN. That is correct. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sarbanes. Senator SARBANES. Senator Kerry. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR JOHN F. KERRY Senator KERRY. Let me follow up quickly on that point, if I may. It's my understanding, Ms. Braun, that you left the house at approximately 11 p.m., 11:10? Ms. BRAUN. Yes, sir. Senator KERRY. The President of the United States had arrived? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Senator FERRY. There was Secret Service everywhere? Ms. BRAUN. There was one on the steps, and then I think there was one outside, Senator KERRY. You never mentioned anything to them about sealing the office? Ms. BRAUN. No, I did not. Senator KERRY. The place was more crowded than ever at that point in time? Ms. BRAUN. It was slightly more crowded, yes. Senator KERRY. Would you say it was a very difficult situation in which to try to talk to people and get answers, get questions? Ms. BRAUN. It made it impossible. Senator KERRY. Impossible. All right. At 11:10 you made this request of Mr. Watkins to have the office either sealed or locked; is that correct? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Senator KERRY. At the time you made that request, you weren't thinking about national security files, were you? Ms. BRAUN. No, I was not. Senator KERRY. You weren't thinking about any files, were you? Ms, BRAUN. No. I was thinking about evidence, such as a suicide note, things that were going to indicate Mr. Foster's state of mind. Senator KERRY. In fact, it's your evidence last year, it's your evidence this year, it's your testimony in depositions repeatedly, all of you, that really what was on your minds that night was Mr. Foster's state of mind; correct? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Senator KERRY. Correct, Mr. Rolla? Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. Senator KERRY. What consumed you as you went to this house was not the word "Whitewater." In fact, did Whitewater cross your mind at that point? Ms. BRAUN. I had never heard the word "Whitewater" before that. Mr. ROLLA. I never heard it, 197 Senator KERRY. What consumed you was the tragedy? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Mr. ROLLA. Yes. Senator KERRY, At 11.10 you made a request not with any sense of somebody hiding something, just to secure it so if a note could be found or something existed to show state of mind, you would be able to find that? Ms. BRAUN, Yes, Senator KERRY. You are now aware that the office was, in fact, locked within half an hour; is that correct? Ms. BRAUN. No, I'm not aware of that. Senator KERRY. You're not aware of that. You don't know that the office was locked at 11:41 p.m., just 30 minutes later? Ms. BRAUN. No. Mr. ROLLA. No. Senator KERRY. Would you say if, in fact, the office was locked and there's evidence that the office was locked 30 minutes later, that that's a pretty quick response under those circumstances? Ms. BRAUN. Assuming it was, yes, Senator KERRY, Would that response satisfy you in terms of your directive? Ms. BRAUN. I guess, but knowing now that the office was entered before I made the request, it's a moot point. Senator KERRY. I understand that, but if there was no request under the circumstances of this tragedy, if someone was not at a home where they were acting out and working out their grief, is it not perfect common sense and normal human behavior that they would gravitate to the place where they worked with this person? Is there anything unusual in your mind about that in terms of human behavior?
Battlefront: Guns Roar During Cardinal's Visit
Battlefront: Guns Roar During Cardinal's Visit Battle scenes along the fighting front in Korea. VS United Nations troops loading and firing big guns (artillery). Explosions hit nearby hillsides. Long shots of North Korean soldiers surrendering. Wounded POWs are helped along. Korean prisoners of war sit while their guns are piled next to them. Cardinal Spellman visits wounded soldiers at hospital while General Van Fleet looks on.
July 20, 1995 - Part 4
(23:45:47) Ms. BRAUN. I guess not. Senator KERRY. Mr. Rolla, what about you? Mr. ROLLA. No. Senator KERRY. So, before they get a request, some of his coworkers went to his office and there's evidence that Maggie Williams was sitting there crying. Does that strike you as unusual? Ms. BRAUN. No, I guess not. Senator KERRY. Now, importantly, again and again you have said the only thing on your mind was a note or state of mind; correct? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Senator FERRY. You didn't view the house as a place of suspicion, did you, when you got there? Ms. BRAUN. No. Senator KERRY. You didn't go upstairs and search in the bathroom, in the medicine cabinet, under the pillow, on the bureau or anywhere for a note, did you? Ms. BRAUN. That would be unreasonable. Senator KERRY. Because you knew this was a place of grief, and it was a place where people were trying to give you. answers about state of mind under difficult circumstances? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. 198 Senator KERRY. Is there any reason to have believed that his office would have been a different kind of place that same night at that same time? Ms. BRAUN. I guess it didn't occur to me. What I was looking for in that office was the state it was in when he left it. Mr. ROLLA. I didn't expect anyone to be in his office. I didn't expect the office to be like his house, people gravitating, grieving. A house is more personal. We're not going to intrude on somebody's bedroom or in their house during that. Again, it's just an issue of cooperation, Senator KERRY. In point of fact, his office was not treated as if it were a house. There were only three or so people, his co-workers in that particular department or in the White House, who went into it. Isn't that accurate? Mr. ROLLA. I believe so. Senator KERRY. Now, you never told Mr. Watkins specifically that you should not prevent anybody with a right to go into the office from going in, did you? Ms. BRAUN. No. Senator KERRY. Did you ever intend that somebody who had a right to go into the office should not go into the office? Ms. BRAUN. No. Senator KERRY. You merely intended that it be basically preserved from maybe the media coming in or a whole lot of people traipsing around and disturbing the possibility of exclusively finding a note; correct? Ms. BRAUN. Right. Senator KERRY. With respect to that note, we have the actual handwritten note. Both sides have had it, and out of respect to the family, that note is not now going to be made available on these screens, nor do I think it should be, necessarily, though I might say were it visible on the screen for people to read and see, I think they would have a better understanding of what all of this is really about. It has been made public, however, its contents. Let me just ask you a couple of questions about it. Subsequent to the finding of that note, the handwriting of that note has been compared, has it not, to Vince Foster's handwriting? Ms. BRAUN. I had no involvement in that part of the investigation. Senator KERRY. Do you know that? Mr. ROLLA. Yes. Senator KERRY. Do you know that, Major? Mr. HINES. Yes, I do. Senator KERRY. You know that the finding is that this handwriting has been found to be Vince Foster's handwriting? Mr. HINES. Yes, I do. Senator KERRY. The authenticity of this note is not in doubt, is it? Mr. HINES. It's not in doubt. Senator KERRY. No one has questioned its authenticity? Mr. HINES. Not to my knowledge. Senator KERRY. Since it was handwritten and that authenticity is stated and clear and unquestioned, I might add, this note was written before Vince Foster died? 199 Mr. ROLLA. Yes, it was. Senator KERRY. Therefore, let me read the contents to you for a moment, and I want to ask you a question about it. Vince Foster wrote: Whenever I made mistakes from ignorance, inexperience, and overwork, I did not knowingly violate any law or standard of conduct. No one in the White House, to my knowledge, violated any law or standard of conduct, including any action in the Travel Office. There was no intent to benefit any individual or specific group. The FBI lied in their report to the AG. The press is covering up the illegal benefits they received from the Travel staff. The GOP has lied and misrepresented its knowledge and role and covered up a prior investigation. The Ushers Office plotted to have excessive costs incurred, taking advantage of CACI and HRC. The public will never believe the innocence of the Clintons and their loyal staff. The WSJ-standing for Wall Street Journal--editors lie without consequence. I was not meant for the job or the spotlight of public life in Washington. Here, ruining people is considered sport.
July 20, 1995 - Part 4
(12:50:52) Now, I ask you, as investigators for the Park Police, is there anything in that note that strikes you as a note that should not have been found or that hides something or that has any evidence whatsoever of anything that might lead somebody to an ill conclusion about Vince Foster or the Clintons? Ms. BRAUN. No. That note would have been helpful. Mr. ROLLA. No, not to me. Mr. HINES. No, not to me. The note, although not a suicide note, per se, did list some grievances he had and was a critical piece of evidence to us. Senator KERRY. You just said it would have been helpful, Ms. Braun? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Senator KERRY. Therefore, presumably, one would have wanted to have found it sooner? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Senator KERRY. Now, turning to your statement at some point in the deposition, Major, in answer to a question about the finding and friends on the other side of the aisle have asked you about this; they've said about this that a blind person could have found the note. In answer to the question what did he say to you-this is referring to Captain Hume about the discovery of the briefcase-he said, "Well, basically, we're talking about a briefcase. We believe it was the briefcase that was in the office the morning of the search." So, in effect, he doesn't know if it was the briefcase, but he believes it; correct? Mr. HINES. That's true. Senator KERRY. He says: Mr. Nussbaum took papers out of the briefcase and looked into it and then put it down and kicked it in the back of the room. Now, he's one of 13 people who suggests that is what happened, that he looked into it or did what he did, one of 13. Then you say- And when I talked to Captain Hume in relation to this, just in conversation, I said, 'We would have found that note because we would have been looking in the office and found his briefcase.' And he said, 'Yeah, our oldest, blindest detective would have found the note,' which is true. If it had been in the briefcase the morning we were there, and we'd have looked into it, we would have found it. 200 The point is, Major, you didn't look in, did you? Mr. HINES. No, we didn't. Senator KERRY. There were files in it; isn't that correct? Mr. HINES. My understanding. I didn't look in the briefcase. Senator KERRY. The evidence shows that the note was crimped beneath the middle flap; correct? Mr. HINES. That's the way I understand it. Senator KERRY. so if the files were in it on top of the crimp and on top of the note and you were looking down at files, you wouldn't see a note, would you? Mr. HINES, Senator Kerry, if any one of the Park Police detectives would have searched that briefcase and if we would have looked in the briefcase, we would have found the note. Senator KERRY. I agree. But they didn't, did they? Mr. HINES. We didn't look into it. Senator KERRY. Correct, and we'll get to all of that later. All I'm trying to point out is that we should not permit assumptions to be drawn here that are not based on the evidence. Mr. HINES. True. Senator KERRY. Isn't that true? Mr. HINES. Yes, sir. Senator KERRY. You know that as a detective, as an investigator? Mr. HINES. That's true. Senator KERRY. The fact here is it wasn't looked into. The facts about the state of the briefcase were, in fact, different from the phraseology that you were making your assumption on; isn't that true? Mr. HINES. That's true. Senator KERRY. So, point made, it's improbable to really say that judgment you drew is, in fact, true? Mr. HINES. That was my opinion at the time. Senator KERRY. Opinion, but not a fact. Mr. HINES. It was not a fact. Senator KERRY. Thank you very much. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hines, why didn't you or the Park Service look into the briefcase, the bag, Vince Foster's case? Mr. HINES. My understanding of the reason we did not look into it is we were not allowed to look into it. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Senator Sarbanes, do you have any other people? Senator SARBANES. Yes, I have Senator Moseley-Braun. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR CAROL MOSELEY-BRAUN Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, Senator Sarbanes. I am going to try to be brief so we're not here on the next anniversary and we get through this process. At the outset, I want to join my colleagues in thanking all of you for your participation here. This is the second time we've done this. This is the second year, and once again for the record, Sergeant Braun, I think we should let the conspiracy theorists know we are not related in any way. We did that last year, but I think it's important to set the record straight on that.