July 20, 1995 - Part 4
July 20, 1995 - Part 4
(12:40:35) Senator GRAMS. Yes, thank you. The CHAIRMAN. We have several minutes. Three minutes. Mr. Chertoff. Mr. CHERTOFF. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Major Hines, am I correct from what you just said that you regard the office itself, including where everything is placed, whether it's neat or messy, where things are arranged, what the last thing looked at on the desk was-you look at all of that information in the office as evidence; correct? Mr. HINES. That would be evidence and information that we would need in a suicide to determine a person's state of mind, and then we would ask questions. We would have to combine these with interviews with employees that he worked with. Mr. CHERTOFF. So the very condition of the office itself is an important piece of information; correct? Mr. HINES. Very important piece of information. Mr. CHERTOFF. Sergeant Braun, I take it on the day of July 20, 1993 or the night of July 20, 1993, when you asked to have the office secured, you were using your best judgment, that going in there and looking at that information and evidence was important to you; correct? Ms. BRAUN. That's correct. Mr. CHERTOFF. You didn't order anybody to do it; right? Ms. BRAUN. No, I did riot. Mr. CHERTOFF. You made a request for cooperation; correct? Ms. BRAUN. Yes, I did. Mr. CHERTOFF. Is it common in your experience when you deal with people who are witnesses or who have some involvement in an investigation that you want their cooperation? Ms. BRAUN. Yes, sir. Mr. CHERTOFF. Did Mr. Watkins indicate to you that he would refuse to cooperate? Ms. BRAUN. No. Mr. CHERTOFF. He told you he would cooperate? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. 196 Mr. CHERTOFF. The reason you wanted that office secured-not with a lot of tape, but locked so that no one could get into it-was to prevent people from rummaging, moving things, opening things, packing things away; correct? Ms. BRAUN. That is correct. Mr. CHERTOFF. You didn't get your request adhered to; isn't that also correct? Ms. BRAUN. That is correct. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sarbanes. Senator SARBANES. Senator Kerry. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR JOHN F. KERRY Senator KERRY. Let me follow up quickly on that point, if I may. It's my understanding, Ms. Braun, that you left the house at approximately 11 p.m., 11:10? Ms. BRAUN. Yes, sir. Senator KERRY. The President of the United States had arrived? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Senator FERRY. There was Secret Service everywhere? Ms. BRAUN. There was one on the steps, and then I think there was one outside, Senator KERRY. You never mentioned anything to them about sealing the office? Ms. BRAUN. No, I did not. Senator KERRY. The place was more crowded than ever at that point in time? Ms. BRAUN. It was slightly more crowded, yes. Senator KERRY. Would you say it was a very difficult situation in which to try to talk to people and get answers, get questions? Ms. BRAUN. It made it impossible. Senator KERRY. Impossible. All right. At 11:10 you made this request of Mr. Watkins to have the office either sealed or locked; is that correct? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Senator KERRY. At the time you made that request, you weren't thinking about national security files, were you? Ms. BRAUN. No, I was not. Senator KERRY. You weren't thinking about any files, were you? Ms, BRAUN. No. I was thinking about evidence, such as a suicide note, things that were going to indicate Mr. Foster's state of mind. Senator KERRY. In fact, it's your evidence last year, it's your evidence this year, it's your testimony in depositions repeatedly, all of you, that really what was on your minds that night was Mr. Foster's state of mind; correct? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Senator KERRY. Correct, Mr. Rolla? Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. Senator KERRY. What consumed you as you went to this house was not the word "Whitewater." In fact, did Whitewater cross your mind at that point? Ms. BRAUN. I had never heard the word "Whitewater" before that. Mr. ROLLA. I never heard it, 197 Senator KERRY. What consumed you was the tragedy? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Mr. ROLLA. Yes. Senator KERRY, At 11.10 you made a request not with any sense of somebody hiding something, just to secure it so if a note could be found or something existed to show state of mind, you would be able to find that? Ms. BRAUN, Yes, Senator KERRY. You are now aware that the office was, in fact, locked within half an hour; is that correct? Ms. BRAUN. No, I'm not aware of that. Senator KERRY. You're not aware of that. You don't know that the office was locked at 11:41 p.m., just 30 minutes later? Ms. BRAUN. No. Mr. ROLLA. No. Senator KERRY. Would you say if, in fact, the office was locked and there's evidence that the office was locked 30 minutes later, that that's a pretty quick response under those circumstances? Ms. BRAUN. Assuming it was, yes, Senator KERRY, Would that response satisfy you in terms of your directive? Ms. BRAUN. I guess, but knowing now that the office was entered before I made the request, it's a moot point. Senator KERRY. I understand that, but if there was no request under the circumstances of this tragedy, if someone was not at a home where they were acting out and working out their grief, is it not perfect common sense and normal human behavior that they would gravitate to the place where they worked with this person? Is there anything unusual in your mind about that in terms of human behavior?