July 20, 1995 - Part 4
July 20, 1995 - Part 4
(12:30:01)(tape # 10118 begins) Mr. ROLLA, No, the manual does not. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. It does not. The distinction is obviously made between the scene of a death and a workplace investigation related to a suicide that occurs in a different location; is that correct? Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. (12:30:20) Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Finally, with respect to your experience in investigating suicides, Sergeant Braun, how many suicides had you investigated prior to July 20, 1993? Ms, BRAUN. I had done one prior. 192 Mr. BEN-VENISTE. One prior. In that case, I trust the workplace was not sealed? Ms. BRAUN. The workplace wasn't relevant. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. In your collective experience, including Major Hines', I trust there has been no example of a workplace being sealed or requested to be sealed where that workplace was not the scene of the death; is that correct? Mr. HINES. That's correct. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. You've talked to your colleagues at the Park Police, and that is a uniform conclusion, is it not? Mr. ROLLA. I believe so. Mr. HINES, Yes, it is. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. So, essentially, when you were going to the White House, you were looking for the cooperation of individuals, there to help you along with your investigation to look for the lim- ited types of materials that you've described here; correct? Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. The only thing about this request of the Counsel's Office to the White House was that this wasn't a normal workplace at all. It was filled with lawyer's files and, indeed, the files of the lawyer to the President of the United States; correct? Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. Mr. HINES. That's correct. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. You didn't expect or would have expected that you would be able to look through all of those files; is that correct? Ms. BRAUN. That's correct. Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. There's no way that you wanted to do that? Ms. BRAUN. No. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. I have nothing further. (12:32:15)(tape #10117 ends) The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hines, on the night of July 20, 1993, you got a phone call at approximately 9:45 informing you of the Foster death; is that correct? Mr. HINES. That's correct, Senator. The CHAIRMAN. Who called you from the Park Police? Mr. HINES. Lieutenant Gavin. The CHAIRMAN. Lieutenant Gavin called you and suggested that you make contact with people at the White House? Mr. HINES. Yes, he did. The CHAIRMAN. You called a Mr. Burton? Mr. HINES. Yes, I did. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Burton is the assistant to Mr. McLarty, the Chief of Staff of the White House? Mr. HINES. That's my understanding. The CHAIRMAN. You testified in your deposition that he was obviously shocked and upset, you could tell Mr. HINES. I could tell on the phone that he was very upset. The CHAIRMAN. He told you of the close relationship-because you didn't realize it at the time-and what Mr. Foster's position was in the Administration? Mr. HINES. Yes, he did. The CHAIRMAN. His relationship with the President? Mr. HINES. Yes, he did. 193 The CHAIRMAN. Then you go on, on page 29, and you say--I want to verify whether this is correct, if your memory is still as you gave in the deposition. I will read to you. You were telling him, "One of the things we would need to do is to look into his office," meaning Mr. Foster's office, "for any evidence of motive that we might find for a suicide like a suicide note or any other items." Then you continue, "We have a certain protocol, investigation of suicides that we look for. I told him that he would need to have his offices secured for those reasons." Did you tell him that? Mr. HINES. Yes, I did, The CHAIRMAN, Is that correct? Mr. HINES. That's correct. The CHAIRMAN. You remember having told him that, you remember having testified to that in your deposition? Mr. HINES. Yes, I do. The CHAIRMAN. That is correct and true? Mr. HINES. Yes, it is. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Chertoff. Senator Grams, excuse me. Senator GRAMS. I had one question. I'd like to make a clarification in response to some questions that Senator Dodd had asked and also Minority counsel. They tried to talk about the sealing of the office, how it all of a sudden wasn't important in your minds. I think he said by the next morning you had assessed in your opinion that this was a suicide, and sealing the office, in your mind at that time, was not as important. I think you both responded yes, although Mr. Hines had testified until this is concluded, certainly, and all evidence is in that it was a suicide, all areas should be considered as if a crime scene were involved. Would you agree with that, that even the next morning, while the assumption was this was a suicide, all the information had not been in, and so the office still should have been considered an area that should have been sealed? Mr. ROLLA. No, I don't agree with that. Senator GRAMS. You think the next morning, that the information you had was enough to say that this was a suicide?