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July 20, 1995 - Part 2
(11:20:45) Mr. HINES. That was my understanding. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Who was it that brought Captain Hume and Detective Markland into the investigation? Mr. HINES. The position that they occupy is in the Criminal Investigations Branch. Death investigations fall within the scope of the Criminal Investigations Branch, Captain Hume is the Assistant Commander of that branch and it's their normal business to investigate such things. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. But who actually notified them that they ought to respond to the White House the following morning'? Mr. HINES. It would be a normal investigative proced ure to respond to the place of employment of a person who committed sui- cide. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. But somebody had to tell them. Do you know who? Ms. BRAUN. I spoke to Captain Hume. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. What time did you speak with Captain Hume? Ms. BRAUN. I spoke to him at around 6:30 in the morning when he came into work. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. You told him that he ought to respond to the White House that morning? Ms. BRAUN. I briefed him on what the situation was, what the scene was like what Investigator Rolla and I had do and on what request had been made, what information we had found out and what still needed to be done. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Do you know that, according to the testimony of Captain Hume, he did not recall that you told him anything about making a request to lock the office? Ms. BRAUN. No, I don't know that. 169 Mr. BEN-VENISTE. OK. Now, they responded, Hume and Markland, to the White House at 8:30 in the morning. They were escorted by Secret Service agents to the West Wing. They sat and waited. What time was your briefing? Mr. HINES. Our briefing was around 10 a.m. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Do you recall exactly what time it was, because there are differing recollections about what time? Is it reflected in any report? Mr. HINES. No, it's not. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Might it have broken up as late as 11:30? Mr. HINES. It could have been between 11 and 11:30. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. OK. Mr. Nussbaum was with you? Mr. HINES. Yes, he was. Mr. BEN-VE NISTE. So he couldn't be answering any questions or providing any assistance to Detective Markland and Captain Hume at that point; correct? Mr. HINES. For clarity, are we talking about July 21, 1993? Mr. BEN-VENISTE. July 21, 1993, Mr. HINES. That's correct. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Captain Hume and Detective Markland are sitting off in the West Wing hoping to get started doing what they hoped to do while you were briefing Mr. Nussbaum in another part of the building? Mr. HINES. That's correct. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. You have learned since that they got upset because they were sitting out in the hallway cooling their heels when they thought they ought to be doing something? Mr. HINES. Let me explain that I do not recollect that Captain Hume and Detective Markland were sitting in the West Wing at 8:30 in the morning on the morning of July 21, 1993. 1 met Detective Markland and Captain Hume as I was leaving the White House in the old West Executive Avenue parking lot, and I briefed them that we had just talked to some staff people and told them the protocol and what we would be expecting to do. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. You don't recall whether they told you what time they had arrived at the West Wing that morning? Mr. HINES. No, I don't recall. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. OK. But, Sergeant Braun, you recall telling Captain Hume at 6:30 in the morning that he ought to respond to the White House? Ms. BRAUN. I told him, yes, what we had done and what I thought still needed to be done. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. So you wouldn't argue with the notion that during the time that you were briefing Mr. Nussbaum, and, indeed, even prior to that, Detective Markland and Captain Hume had thought that some arrangement had been made for them to talk to Mr. Nussbaum that same morning at that same time? Mr. HINES. No, I would not. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Just a mix-up? Mr. HINES. Yes, sir. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Honest mistake? Mr. HINES. Yes. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Finally-I see that my time is 170 The CHAIRMAN. Counsel, why don't you conclude this. I think that's the way we want to do it. I intend to give that flexibility to both sides. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. I think I've pretty well covered where I want to go. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. You don't wish to conclude? Mr. BEN-VENISTE. I think we're at a good point. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Shelby, OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR RICHARD C. SHELBY Senator SHELBY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Major Hines, I believe-without trying to go over all the testimony and be redundant here-you were present at the briefing that was held by the Park Police at the White House the day after Mr. Foster's death; is that correct?
July 20, 1995 - Part 2
(11:25:43) Mr. HINES. Yes, I was. senator SHELBY. Who else was present there at this briefing? Mr. HINES. There were several people. As I've said, Mr. Nussbaum was there. Senator SHELBY. Mr. Nussbaum was there. Mr. HINES. Mr. Hubbell was there. Senator SHELBY. Mr. Hubbell was there. Mr. HINES. Mr, Watkins was there. Senator SHELBY. Mr. Watkins was there. Mr. HINES. Mr. Stephanopoulos was there. Senator SHELBY. Stephanopoulos was there. Mr. HINES. There was a host of other people there. Senator SHELBY. Who was there, besides you, from the Park Police that you recall? Mr. HINES. Chief Robert Langston. Senator SHELBY. Were there any FBI agents there? Mr. HINES, I did not notice any FBI agents. Senator SHELBY. At that point? Mr. HINES. At that point. Senator SHELBY. Now, what was the purpose of the briefing, other than to tell them what your normal procedures were? Mr. HINES. Just a courtesy call, a protocol call to tell them what our procedures would be and we needed their assistance Senator SHELBY. What you needed to do? Mr. HINES. Yes. Senator SHELBY. What did you tell them you needed to do? Mr. HINES. That we wanted to go in and look at his office and we needed to interview his co-workers and determine his Senator SHELBY. You mean to search his office or look through his office? Mr. HINES. Look through his office for any indication of his state of mind and did he leave a suicide note. Senator SHELBY. Who was it that you were mainly talking to? Mr. Nussbaum? Mr. HINES. It was a whole group of people. I was addressing a whole group. Senator SHELBY. Was he the lead figure in the group, though? 171 Mr. HINES. He was-I couldn't characterize him as being the lead figure in the group. Senator SHELBY. What did he say when you said that? Did he say it was OK? Mr. HINES. I don't recall what he said or-I mean, I was addressing a whole group, so I didn't recall any specific Senator SHELBY. Did anybody object what you were talking to about, going in the office at that time to look through the office looking for anything that would help you in your investigation? Mr. HINES. No one objected at that time. Senator SHELBY. Did Mr. Stephanopoulos say basically, if you recall, that you should proceed as you would in any normal investigation? Mr. HINES. To the best of my recollection, that's what lie said. Senator SHELBY. OR About what time of the morning was this on July 21, 1993? Mr. HINES. It was between 10 and 11 a.m. Senator SHELBY. How long did you stay there? Mr. HINES. I would think about 45 minutes or an hour. Senator SHELBY. Did you proceed to go into the office? Mr. HINES, No, I did not. Senator SHELBY. What happened? Mr. HINES. It would not be my job to go into the office. Senator SHELBY, OK. Did you have people there that were ready to go into the office? Mr. HINES. I met Captain Hume and Detective Markland in the parking lot. Senator SHELBY. In the parking lot as you were leaving? Mr. HINES. Yes, I did. Senator SHELBY. What did you say to them, if anything? Mr. HINES. I told them, basically, that we had just briefed members of the White House staff and that we explained the investigative process that we'd be going through and they were expecting members of our Criminal Investigations Branch to be there. Senator SHELBY. Did anyone from the Park Police or the FBI that day, on July 21, 1993, go into Mr. Foster's office and look for evidence that would help you conclude your investigation? Mr. HINES. Not to my knowledge. Senator SHELBY. OK. Why didn't they go in there? Mr. HINES. I do not know. Senator SHELBY. Do you know if there was ever an agreement between the White House and the Justice Department setting out the parameters of a search of the office? Mr. HINES. I did not know of such an agreement until later on July 21, 1993. Senator SHELBY. You learned of it later? Mr. HINES. I learned of that later. Senator SHELBY. What time of the day did you learn of that? Mr. HINES. It was probably in the afternoon of July 21, 1993. Senator SHELBY. What was that agreement? What was the basis of that agreement? Mr. HINES, I only know that they had established a protocol. What was included in that protocol for the examination of the office, I do not know. 172 Senator SHELBY. Who would know in your- Mr. HINES. Captain Hume would probably know. Senator SHELBY, Captain Hume. Would any of these people here at the table know? Mr. HINES. No, they would not. Senator SHELBY. But, in any event, you were not able to go in that office to complete your investigation that day? Mr. HINES. On July 21, 1993, we were not in the office. Senator SHELBY. Did people from the Park Police go in on the following day, July 22, 1993? Mr. HINES. I believe, on July 22, 1993, they did go into the office Senator SHELBY. Was Mr. Nussbaum in the office then along with others? Mr. HINES. I was not present, but based on the knowledge that I have, yes, he was in the office. Senator SHELBY. Were you able-the Park Police-to conduct a normal investigation at the White House office that day, what you would call normal procedure? Mr. HINES. Any time you have a suicide of such a high member of the White House staff, I don't think any of that investigation would be normal. Senator SHELBY. Because of the high rank Mr. HINES. Because of the high-ranking figure Senator SHELBY. -and where he worked?
July 20, 1995 - Part 2
(11:30:36) Mr. HINES. I understand there was a host of several people to go into the office and examine the office. However, they did not search or read any paper, to my knowledge, or any piece of evidence. Senator SHELBY. Do you know from your knowledge that Mr. Nussbaum was in that office at the time-was one of the seven people, in other words, in the office when the investigation contin- ued? Was Mr. Nussbaum one of the seven people in the office? Mr. HINES. Yes, he was one of the people in the office. Senator SHELBY. Did he go through documents or say that this is personal and this is something you can look at? How did he help orchestrate what was going on in the office? Mr. HINES. Senator, I do not have any firsthand knowledge, only reading the reports and what was told to me by our investigators As you described it, that's how he conducted the examination. (11:31:43)(tape #10116 ends)
Sports Thrills.
Sports Thrills. "From water-skiing thrills to spine-tingling crack-ups on the bob-sled run, 1951 saw many thrills and spills. The rodeo thrills were bigger and better, and the jumps at the Grand National never were so dramatic, but the most amazing spectacle of all was the mass crack-up of hot-rod racers at Langhorne, Pennsylvania. Scores of cars collided on the dirt track." Various sports spills, falls, errors. Skiers and ski jumpers, some crashing. Bobsled crash. Running of the bulls. Bull gets a good hit at matador. Motorcyclists on dirt track. Very bad multiple crashes in hot rod auto race; one car bursts into flames.
July 20, 1995 - Part 3
(11:30:01)(tape #10117 begins) investigation at the White House office that day, what you would call normal procedure? Mr. HINES. Any time you have a suicide of such a high member of the White House staff, I don't think any of that investigation would be normal. Senator SHELBY. Because of the high rank Mr. HINES. Because of the high-ranking figure Senator SHELBY. -and where he worked? Mr. HINES. -and where he worked, yes. Senator SHELBY. Do you know who ultimately went into the office and conducted a search or tried to conduct a search from the Park Police or the FBI? (11:30:36) Mr. HINES. I understand there was a host of several people to go into the office and examine the office. However, they did not search or read any paper, to my knowledge, or any piece of evidence. Senator SHELBY. Do you know from your knowledge that Mr. Nussbaum was in that office at the time-was one of the seven people, in other words, in the office when the investigation contin- ued? Was Mr. Nussbaum one of the seven people in the office? Mr. HINES. Yes, he was one of the people in the office. Senator SHELBY. Did he go through documents or say that this is personal and this is something you can look at? How did he help orchestrate what was going on in the office? Mr. HINES. Senator, I do not have any firsthand knowledge, only reading the reports and what was told to me by our investigators As you described it, that's how he conducted the examination. (11:31:43)(tape #10116 ends) Senator SHELBY. Were you concerned about the inability of the Park Police and the FBI to get into that office to complete your investigation? Mr. HINES. At that time I did have some concerns. Senator SHELBY. What were those concerns? That this was unusual behavior? Mr. HINES. There were concerns because we were there to look for a limited scope of the reasons that Vince Foster would take his own life. We had to determine did he have any motive or reason, the state of his mind, and, at the same time when we determined that, we could also rule out that there might have been foul play 173 involved. So it was at that time that I had concern on the next 2 days after his suicide. Senator SHELBY. Did you have a conversation with Captain Hume sometime after July 22, 1993 regarding how the search was actually conducted in contradiction to the agreement? Mr. HINES. I didn't know if it was in contradiction to an agreement, but Captain Hume and I did talk about the conduct of the search. Senator SHELBY. What did he tell you? Mr. HINES. He told me, as we explained, that Mr. Nussbaum handled all the papers and said this is private, this is public, this is lawyer work, and piled them up in stacks like that. Senator SHELBY. How long did they stay in the office, there in Mr. Foster's office? Mr. HINES. I do not recall. Senator SHELBY. You don't know if it was hours or minutes or what, do you? Mr. HINES. I think it was hours, but I don't recall. Senator SHELBY. In other words, Mr. Hines, did Mr. Hume tell you that, basically, the FBI and the Park Police were not allowed to look at hardly anything? Mr. HINES. That's what he told me. Senator SHELBY. OR In other words, it wasn't much of an examination of the office, was it? Mr. HINES. From his perception, no. Senator SHELBY. What's Mr. Hume's position with the Park Police? Mr. HINES. Mr. Hume is the Assistant Commander of the Criminal Investigations Branch. Senator SHELBY. Is he highly experienced in these types of inves- tigations, criminal investigations or suicide investigations? Mr. HINES. Yes, he is. Senator SHELBY. Is he still with the Park Police? Mr. HINES. Yes, he is. Senator SHELBY. Does he have an excellent reputation as a police officer with the Park Police? Mr. HINES. Yes, he does. He is a very good investigator. Senator SHELBY. Do you know or have you heard of an FBI agent named Scott Salter? Mr. HINES. Only in the reports that I've read. Senator SHELBY. You've read about it and you've read a report where his name was mentioned? Mr. HINES. Yes, I have. Senator SHELBY. Do you know if he was accused by the White House Counsel, Mr. Cliff Sloan, of trying to peek at documents on the desk when he merely stood up to stretch during Mr. Nuss- baum's search of the office? Mr. HINES. Yes, the first I heard of that was when I read it in the paper. Senator SHELBY. Do you hear many complaints like that dealing with the FBI? Mr. HINES. No, I haven't. 174 Senator SHELBY. Would you characterize the interference or the
Sea Epic: Captain Winning Fight to Save Stricken Ship.
Sea Epic: Captain Winning Fight to Save Stricken Ship. "First films of a dramatic saga of man-against-the-sea. Captain Henrik Carlsen sticks with his ship, the freighter 'Enterprise,' broken and listed after a hurricane hit her. With a British tug finally getting her in tow, the 'Enterprise' and her valiant skipper are heading for Falmouth - and triumph." Aerials of the freighter lying on its side, sort of, floating on the ocean. Shots on shore, stormy waves crashing onto the land. VS homes damages by the storm; through one broken wall the sea is visible.
Churchill In U.S.: Confers with Truman and Defense Chiefs
Churchill In U.S.: Confers with Truman and Defense Chiefs "Britain's dynamic Prime Minister arrives on the 'Queen Mary' for a brief New York welcome, then flies to Washington for top-level discussions on vital subjects affecting Britain and this country. At the airport, where President Truman greets him, Mr. Churchill speaks eloquently for harmony and close bonds between his country and ours." Liner Queen Mary sailing. Tugboat pushing Queen Mary. VS British Prime Minister Winston Churchill in the process of his travel, press nearby. Plane taxiing, U.S. Capitol dome in background. Churchill deplanes, greets President Harry Truman (there seems to be a sincere mutual respect) and others. Churchill, standing at press microphones (press conference) with Truman at his side, says he hopes together (and, in his words, "through your vast strength"), the two nations may bring "peace and hope and salvation on earth to struggling mankind." Truman agrees: "Peace on earth is what we're both striving for; thank you, sir." VS Truman and Churchill on ship. British Foreign Minister Anthony Eden and U.S. Secretary of State Dean Acheson, together, looking like they were twins separated at birth. Various photo ops of Churchill and Truman, with other officials around them.
July 20, 1995 - Part 3
(11:35:20) Mr. HINES. I would characterize it as unusual in our normal experiences, but, again, it's unusual for us to go to the White House and make that type of investigation. Senator SHELBY, Did you wonder if they had something to hide in those papers there? Mr. HINES. I just wondered why we didn't have any cooperation because we were only looking for limited information about why Mr. Foster would commit suicide, was there anything on his mind that might tend to have him take his own life. Senator SHELBY. But it was unusual procedure that was going on and it gave you reason to question what was going on, really? Mr. HINES. That was our perception. Senator SHELBY. OK. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sarbanes. Senator SARBANES. Senator Dodd. Senator DODD. Thank you, Senator. I'll take a few minutes then turn to counsel. First, let me thank all three of you. You've been before us before. You begin to wonder, I suppose, what your careers are. I suppose you spend a great deal of time just on this and there's a great deal of respect that all of us have for the jobs you have to do. Certainly, you probably didn't anticipate on that day in July two years ago that you'd be spending this much time going back and recounting events and details of those several days. So I thank you immensely for the time you dedicated to this and the effort that you've made to share with this Committee and others your recollections. I understand, and I appreciate immensely your jobs and your training and what you've got to do. Obviously, none of you knew Mr. Foster, I presume, before, you didn't know the family. You get a report the afternoon of July 20, 1993, late afternoon, and you respond to it, Sergeant Braun and Investigator Rolla, and you are doing your job, in effect. I wonder if you might, because I think it gets to the heart of what we're talking about here-you've got your job to do as investigators and we're trying to determine motivations and so forth, intents of people. The accusation is, in effect, by some that there was a corrupt intent here to somehow deprive investigators, you and others, of doing your job. That's the assumption some people have drawn. Others are saying they're not sure about that, it doesn't look that way necessarily. You are dealing with a traumatic event, here and the people were acting in a rather human way given the circumstances. We're asking you, in a sense, to try to shed some light on this, and there will be those who will obviously try to get' you to characterize these situations so that it reinforces the argument that there was some intent in that regard. I wonder if you might be able to step back a little bit and let me begin with you, Sergeant Braun and Mr. Rolla, Are you an officer, Mr. Rolla? I didn't get your- Mr. ROLLA. Detective. Senator DODD. Detective. I'm sorry. Give us a feel for this. Obviously, You ' re being very analytical, your reports require you to do 175 so, just what the facts are, the times, the dates and what people say. I guess I should, first of all, begin by asking both of you, have you ever been involved in a suicide situation in the past? Ms. BRAUN, Yes. Senator DODD. You have, Sergeant? Ms. BRAUN, Yes. Senator DODD. So you've had some familiarity with how people react. You've had to notify a family? Ms. BRAUN. Yes, I've done notifications. Senator DODD. What normally happens? What are people like when you do that? MS. BRAUN. They're initially very upset, and then they are very inquisitive as to what happened, did the people suffer, things like that. Senator DODD. That was the case here when you went to the Foster home and, Mr. Rolla, as you say-and I appreciate entirely your job there at that point, taught and trained to go in and have to break that news- that's the toughest thing you have to do. Did Mrs. Foster and her family react in a predictable way? Mr. ROLLA. Very predictable. Traumatic. Senator DODD, Cried? Mr. ROLLA. Crying, screaming, collapsing. Senator DODD. You were there how long? About an hour; is that right? Mr. ROLLA. About an hour. Senator DODD. Hour, hour and a half, something like that? Ms. BRAUN. Hour, hour and 10 minutes. Mr. ROLLA. We got there at 10 p.m. and we cleared at 11.10, according to reports. Senator DODD. In the space of that time, it's a handful of people as you arrived and the crowd begins to gather, as I understand; is that correct? Mr. ROLLA. No other people arrived, other than the President, once we originally got there that I'm aware of. Senator DODD. So it was just, so just Ms. BRAUN. They arrived-the group arrived upon our heels of going up into the doorway, and that's the only group that came other than the President, who arrived at about 11 p.m. Senator DODD. OK. Did you talk to each individual person there, however limited, for a few minutes or less than that?
News in Brief: New Carrier Catapult.
News in Brief: New Carrier Catapult. British carrier at sea demonstrates new catapult that can get aircraft aloft even while ship is at anchor. Film shows various stages of tests, from dead weight and pilotless plane (which crashes into the water) to jets speeding away successfully. Invention, innovation, technology.
July 20, 1995 - Part 3
(11:40:20) Mr. ROLLA. Some people were not approachable. We tried to talk to different people. We talked to-I think we talked briefly to both sisters. I had more of a rapport with Mrs. Foster, so I talked to her. Cheryl talked to Laura, the daughter. The sons weren't home. We talked to Mr, Watkins. Other than that, we didn't talk to anyone else there. Senator DODD. But their responses and actions were not out of the ordinary in your experience-maybe, again, I'll focus this on you, Ms. Braun--in your experience in dealing with that reluctance to talk, being grief stricken, highly emotional, this is a normal pattern, you were not necessarily surprised by how people were reacting? Ms. BRAUN. I think we were, a little bit, in that it was so businesslike and in that nobody seemed-that this was a complete sur- 176 prise to everybody, and I don't think in a suicide that is a normal-- suicide isn't normally a complete surprise to the family. I feel that-and this is my own personal opinion-that there might have been a little bit of damage control going on, in that this could have possibly been an embarrassing situation for the White House arid so they were reluctant to let us know that, yes, Mr. Foster had been depressed. Things could have been a lot simpler if they had just been up front with us from the beginning, yes, he was depressed, yes, I gave him the names of psychiatrists. We didn't get that information. Senator DODD. That's a conclusion you drew as-have you done suicide investigations -of high-ranking officials in other positions or people of note? Ms. BRAUN. No, I have not. Senator DODD. So there's nothing to compare that with necessarily. It's just a feeling Ms, BRAUN. As I said, it's my personal opinion. Senator DODD. How about you, Mr. Rolla? Mr. ROLLA. I agree with her. One of the things is we didn't want so many people there at one time. We believe in. bringing a close friend, a pastor, somebody, a relative, to help comfort because we certainly didn't want anyone to be alone during this time. But, as I stated before, there comes a time after the initial grief-it's a shock or whatever-that there's information exchanged. They want to know things from us and we get things from them that help us. Depending on the type of case, it's a death investigation where expediency of the information is very important and whether-of course this was all looking like a suicide, leaning that way from the very beginning, but it would have been-we needed to know was he receiving-was there anything out of the ordinary. Was he getting death threats or threatening letters or what. Again, was he depressed, was there some reason to believe that. Overall, I understand people in that-with everyone there, I think maybe there was reluctance on Mrs. Foster's part to talk to us maybe out of embarrassment, not wanting to talk in front of other people. Senator DODD. Do you know what Mrs. Foster's religion is? Mr. ROLLA. I believe they're Catholic. Senator DODD. Were you aware of that at the time? Ms. BRAUN. No. Mr. ROLLA. No. Senator DODD. Let me just mention that that can be a factor as well, given the whole notion of suicide and people of Catholic faith in terms of their views of suicide. Did it occur to you that that might be a part of the thinking as well? Mr. ROLLA. I'm Catholic and if it's embarrass-it occurred to me that it might be embarrassing in front of all those other people. He killed himself. The family isn't going to deal with that with God; he is, as far as their religion is concerned. So in terms of embarrassment, maybe with several other people showing up at that time, maybe she felt less like talking to us about certain things. That's why I like not to go with so many people. Senator DODD. You would understand that? Mr. ROLLA. Yes. 177 Senator DODD. When you approached Mr. Watkins, Sergeant Braun, did you seek out Mr. Watkins or was this in terms of the exchange about securing the office? Ms. BRAUN. Mr. Watkins became like a liaison with us. Since we were asked to contact him because he wanted to go with us to do the notification he fell into that role as being the liaison, So he was the person that I dealt directly with in making my request. Senator DODD. Did you seek him out specifically as you were going out or did this come up in the conversation just as you were leaving? Was it an afterthought or was it something you went specifically to him to raise? Ms. BRAUN. We had stopped to speak to him and to exchange our business cards with Mr. Watkins to let them know if they had any information that they should call us, if they came upon any information that they should call us, and then he made his request about us not releasing Mr. Foster's name to the media, and then I, in turn, made my request to have the office sealed so that we could go through it in the morning.
News in Brief: Storm Lashes Spain.
News in Brief: Storm Lashes Spain. Waves of tidal wave proportion lash the coast near this Spanish resort, sending hundreds fleeing for their lives and causing terrific damage. Seawalls are crumpled by the fury of the raging sea. A few shots of large waves crashing against wall. A few onlookers run for cover. VS damage along the coast caused by the storm.
News in Brief: California, House with the Creeps.
News in Brief: California, House with the Creeps. Owner removes his belongings and prepares to flee as rains weaken foundation, causing house to slip ten feet from its hilltop site. Another day may see the house topple into street below. House perched precariously near top of hill. Men dig away dirt that has covered a fire hydrant. Police officer places an emergency no parking sign on street. Movers carry piece of furniture out of house (this one shot could pass for an ordinary moving situation). VS the damage already caused to the house by this slow landslide.
Sports: Skaters Over The Barrel.
Sports: Skaters Over The Barrel. The world's barrel jumping contest provides thrills and spills for the fans, as U.S. and Canadian jumpers risk their necks on the ice. Several spectacular upsets (bloopers, spills, falls, crashes) are recorded during the event. Judges watching the event include Jackie Robinson, Florence Chadwick (?) and Barney Ross (?). Various slow motion and regular shots of unsuccessful attempts, men falling and sliding on their butts. The winning jump.
Snowbound: Hundreds Saved From Train Stalled 4 Days.
Snowbound: Hundreds Saved From Train Stalled 4 Days. Dramatic scenes of the rescue high in the Sierras at historic Donner Pass. Hundreds of passengers and crewmen of streamliner stalled for days by blizzards are finally rescued as army vehicles and plows break through in the nick of time. Interesting aerial shot of snow-covered train high up in very snowy mountains. Various other shots of the train and scenery. VS police and "rescue train" at station, presumably before the rescue. Man loads supplies onto helicopter. POV shots from relief train traveling through snowy area. VS rescuers on the way. VS people walking through snowy landscape, probably survivors being led to safety. Disaster averted.
Churchill: Prime Minister Asks Steel for Re-Arming.
Churchill: Prime Minister Asks Steel for Re-Arming. A joint session of Congress hears the visiting Prime Minister of England request American steel for Britain's rearmament program, along with plea for unity in face of Red aggression. Mr. Churchill says he has not come asking for money. Prime Minister Winston Churchill shakes hands with Vice President Alben Barkley and Speaker of the House Sam Rayburn. Congressmen in audience applaud before speech. Churchill: "I have not come here to ask you for money... [Laughter.] ... to ask you for money to make life more comfortable or easier for us in Britain. [More laughter as they get his joke] ... I have come here to ask not for gold, but for steel; not for favors, but equipment." Cutaways of the listeners. Churchill goes on to talk about how rearmament is altering the balance of the world and the hope of avoiding a third world war. Ovation after speech.
July 20, 1995 - Part 3
(11:45:46) Senator DODD. Now, let me very quickly ask you here and thenyou've used the words "seal," "secure," "lock," there may be others. These are terms of art in your business Ms. BRAUN. You are correct. Senator DODD. -isn't that correct? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Senator DODD. If someone says seal that scene, that crime scene, there are a certain amount of things you immediately think op. Ms. BRAUN. Right. Senator DODD. I suspect that goes to what Mr. Rolla was saying, that is, the tape around the area to protect whatever evidence and so forth. You, of course, are operating at this point preliminarily on the notion that this is probably a suicide; is that correct? Ms. BRAUN. Yes, sir. Senator DODD. So your reactions in terms of how you deal with these matters are different than if you had drawn a preliminary conclusion that this might have been a murder; correct? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Senator DODD. So sealing has one set of notions involved in it and securing has another, I presume, or is it the same as sealing? Ms. BRAUN. It's interchangeable. Hindsight is 20/20 and I've also, since I've become a supervisor, learned you have to ask a lot of questions and make sure people understand what your meaning is. If I had to do it again today, I would make sure that our meanings were the same. Senator DODD. But you used the word "lock" earlier. What you are really getting at here is Ms. BRAUN. I think I used the word "closed." Senator DODD. "Closed," "locked," what you are thinking about, I'm trying to get at that, Depending on what you are looking at, it's not-you're not-again, as Mr. Rolla said, this is more of a request, this is seeking cooperation? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. senator DODD. You are not trying to protect evidence here, necessarily in the sense you would be if this were a murder? Ms. BRAUN. That's correct, 178 Senator DODD. It's just merely seeking cooperation in a sense? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Senator DODD. So what you were really looking at here was that, the room be closed, that there not be a lot of traffic in it, that there not be a lot of people going in and out and disrupting things and so forth potentially Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Senator DODD. Isn't that what you are really getting at here? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Senator DODD. Which is different than sealing, the notion-the" word "seal" has been used over and over and over again. What you. were driving at was something very different than sealing? Ms. BRAUN. Yes, I wanted to keep the office intact, the way it! was when Mr. Foster left it, and to keep people from rummaging through it. Senator DODD. I see my time has expired here. I don't know if I have time to give back to counsel at all. Was that my full time? The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes. Senator DODD. Oh, I'm sorry. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Faircloth, I've asked could you yield 30 seconds to Senator Shelby? Senator SHELBY. How about 10, sir? The CHAIRMAN. About 10 seconds, and I'd ask for a minute, if you might. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Go right ahead. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Senator Shelby. Senator SHELBY. You were allowed in the office, not you, but the Park Police investigating team was allowed in Mr. Foster's office," but you were not allowed to look at anything; is that correct? Mr. HINES. That is correct. Senator SHELBY. That's correct. In other words, Mr. Nussbaum, in his infinite wisdom, controlled what was what in the office, what you could do? Mr. HINES. That is correct. Senator SHELBY. So this investigation, would you consider its tial part like a sham? Mr. HINES. Pardon me, sir? Senator SHELBY. Was it a sham of an investigation then? Mr. HINES. I wouldn't call it a sham, but I would say that we would have liked to 7 Senator SHELBY. Would you have called it an investigation? Mr. HINES. We would have liked to have looked at those docu- ments, at some of those documents ourselves. Senator SHELBY. It was totally an incomplete investigation, wasn't it? Mr. HINES. Yes, it was. Senator SHELBY. Thank you. Thank you for yielding, Senator. II The CHAIRMAN. If I might, Sergeant Braun, if you had been per- mitted access to the office, is it fair to say that you would looked through Mr. Foster's briefcase? 179 Ms. BRAUN. I would have probably started with Mr. Foster's desk, looking in the obvious place, on the top of the desk to see if there was a note or any information left there like his journal or his diary. The CHAIRMAN. After looking through that, after you found none, and you saw his briefcase-you would have noticed his briefcasewould you have looked in that? Is it fair to assume good investigative procedure would have dictated that you look into that briefcase? Ms. BRAUN. Yeah. Probably the procedure, though, that I would have used would have been in concert with Mr. Foster's secretary, who would know how he keeps his papers, where he keeps his papers, and I would have asked her for certain documents and where he kept them. If she handed me the briefcase to look in, I would have looked in the briefcase. The CHAIRMAN. If the briefcase was in the room next to the desk, would you have looked at it?
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July 20, 1995 - Part 3
(11:50:18) The CHAIRMAN. I understand that. But under such circumstances, a suicide, looking for a note, entering the person's office, looking on the top of the desk or in any of the pull-out drawers to see if there is any note or any information, you would go through the diaries. If there was a briefcase there and you had found one, wouldn't you look Ms. BRAUN. If this was something that he carried back and forth with him between work and home, yes. The CHAIRMAN. OK. I just wanted to find out your procedure. Senator Faircloth. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR LAUCH FAIRCLOTH Senator FAIRCLOTH, Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Detective Rolla, it's nice to have you back after a year. Mr. ROLLA. Thank you, Senator. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Earlier you said that you had been, and I quote, "stonewalled," and weren't getting any cooperation from the people at the Foster home. Were you surprised that no one at the Foster home seemed to want you to investigate Mr. Foster's death? Mr. ROLLA. That word "stonewalled" is creeping up. I never got the impression that no one wanted me to not-or they wanted me not to investigate the death. "Stonewalled" might be-as I think I testified last time-maybe it was too strong of a word. It's a word I used. I used that word in connection with-I believe they had the information that he was suffering depression, that they did give him names of doctors, that he was receiving medication from a doctor in Arkansas for depression and that-it would have been much simpler circumstances to take us aside, if they wanted to do it privately, to have somebody tell us that, that there was some problem. Having knowledge and not giving it is what I would interpret as stonewalling. Senator FAIRCLOTH. OK. Mr. Rolla, would you please tell me about your conversation' with Mr. Markland in reference to the White House's stonewalling of the Park Police's investigation in the period from July 20, 1993? 180 Mr. ROLLA. Again, this is 2 years ago, and I don't have any exact recollection. I remember that lie and Captain Hume were upset on July 21, 1993, 1 believe, the first day they went up there. They were not treated properly or very nicely. No respect was given to them and I don't have any exact-I know they were angry about the way they were treated at the White House. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Let me ask you another question. We'll move through these. On July 28, 1993, you were at the office of Jim Hamilton, Vince Foster's attorney, and you were there to examine' material from Mr. Foster's office; is that right? Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. Senator FAIRCLOTH. In those files was there a diary? Mr. ROLLA. Yes, there was. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Did you ask Mr. Hamilton to see the diary? Mr. ROLLA. Yes. Senator FAIRCLOTH, What was his response? Mr. ROLLA. For some reason Mr. Hamilton put up a small front to us looking at the diary, that it was personal documents or whatever. Myself and Lieutenant Kass were there. Lieutenant Kass told Mr. Hamilton that these were the only documents we were allowed to see from the office and we were finally getting to look at them, If there was possible evidence, we were going to look at these documents. We're not trying to embarrass anyone, but we have an investigation. We're going to look at what you give us here and if there is something we need, we're going to take it. Senator FAIRCLOTH. But you got a chance to look at the diary, didn't you? Mr. ROLLA. Yes, I looked at it. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Was there anything in it about Whitewater? Mr, ROLLA. Not to my recollection. It was--only 10 to 15 pages had writing on them. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Was there anything else that you thought might have led to a suicide or any troubling instant or issue with the White House? Was there anything there? Mr. ROLLA. No. Senator FAIRCLOTH, Let me refresh your memory. You told the FBI in an interview dated December 22, 1993, there was nothing that would indicate depression or any interest in suicide. Mr. ROLLA. That's correct, there wasn't. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Yet you mentioned there was a party at the Governor's Mansion following Bill Clinton's election as President., Mr. Foster makes mention of this in his diary. I about this, Why did you think it was important to tell the FBI and did Mr. Foster say anything in his diary that you want to tell us? Mr. ROLLA. I 'm sorry, they handed me this document I was looking at- mentioning the party at the Governor's Mansion?
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July 20, 1995 - Part 3
(11:55:08) Mr. ROLLA. Basically, they asked me what I could remember. don't believe there were any dates written on the pages. The timeframe, I told them, I believed was post-election, pre-inauguration, and that in one passage I remembered that- and I don't remember word for word. It was obvious that himself and Mrs, Clinton were. 181 close personal friends, a working relationship, were friendly and there was a party-a passage about a party at the Governor's Mansion. There was something else about his daughter leaving the party or something, I believe. Just what 1 could remember. Senator FAIRCLOTH. OK About Foster leaving the party? Mr. ROLLA. No, I think it was his daughter leaving with another friend-going to the party, leaving, I really don't remember. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Mr. Hines, you understood that your Park Police Officers Hume and Markland were having trouble with the White House, and that the White House was preventing them from doing a real investigation. As a result of knowing this, you went to see Tom Collier, Bruce Babbitt's Chief of Staff-, is that right? Mr. HINES. Yes, I did. Senator FAIRCLOTH. You asked his help in getting more cooperation out of the White House for the Park Police; is that correct? Mr. HINES. We told him that we perceived some problems and briefed him on what problems we perceived, and he said that he would look into it. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Are you aware that 2 months later, in September, Mr. Collier hired Webb Hubbell's wife as his special assistant? Mr. Hubbell being one of Mr. Foster's closest friends. Mr. HINES. No, I'm not aware of that, Senator FAIRCLOTH. Did you know that Ms. Hubbell left that job for 11 months, but was allowed to come back to it during the time that Mr. Hubbell was cooperating with the prosecutor? Senator DODD. Mr. Chairman, can I inquire as to the scope of this? The CHAIRMAN. Senator, let's stay within the scope if we can. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Is that out of the scope? The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Senator DODD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Ms. Braun, Mr. Hubbell said that he and Lisa Foster said they searched for a note, did they tell you that? Did they tell you that they did that? Ms. BRAUN. No, sir. Senator FAIRCLOTH. YOU say no? Ms. BRAUN. No, sir. Senator FAIRCLOTH. They did not tell you. Why don't you think they told you that they were looking for a note and couldn't find it? Ms. BRAUN. I had no contact with anybody from the Foster family or Mr. Hubbell after we left there at 11 p.m, that evening. Senator FAIRCLOTH. After all, at that time they did not know for certain that this was a suicide. Wouldn't they have wanted to get information from you as opposed to pushing you out of the way? Ms. BRAUN. I'm not sure I quite understand the frame of your question there, Senator. Senator FAIRCLOTH. I'm sorry. Ms. BRAUN. I don't understand your question, Senator. Senator FAIRCLOTH. I would have thought they would have been trying to get information from you, rather than moving you aside. Ms. BRAUN, I don't know what was going through their heads, Senator. Senator FAIRCLOTH. All right. Thank you. Time's up. 182 The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator. Senator Sarbanes. Senator SARBANES. Senator Boxer. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR BARBARA BOXER Senator BOXER. Thank you very much. Before I turn to the panel of witnesses-and I just want to say welcome and I know this, is not the most pleasant of duties and you are very professional and articulate and very credible-I just want to make a point, and I'd' like to ask the Chairman a question if I could have his attention for a moment. Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask you a question if I could. I am still concerned about what I view a little bit as selective cooperation from the Independent Counsel regarding the Maggie Williams polygraph result, and it is my understanding that. the polygraph test on Maggie Williams was administered by the FBI under the supervision of the Independent Counsel and that. she took it voluntarily and that her counsel was advised by the Independent Counsel that she passed the test. Now, that's my understanding. Will I be permitted or would other Members of the Committee be permitted to question both Maggie Williams and her attorney regarding that test since we cannot get the actual results of that test?