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July 19, 1995 - Part 1
(10:25:38) Senator GRAMS. It was your assumption at that time that had been taken care of? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes. Senator GRAMS. You were under the impression that the office had been sealed that night of July 20, 1993? Mr. HUBBELL. That was my impression, yes, at that point. Senator GRAMS. Now, the fact, in your opinion-and one of the questions and concerns I had, and we've heard a lot of this-was that the White House was very concerned about possible national security issues, possible sensitive nominations that were impending in the office, attorney-client privilege. If the White House would have been so concerned in those Members of the Administration that came there, why didn't the White House immediately ask to have that office sealed and to ensure the integrity, to ensure an inventory was done, to make sure that nobody was going to see the sensitive material? But yet the White House never did that. Instead, three Members of the Administration went into the office and at will were looking through the files with no supervision? Mr. HUBBELL. I don't know that that occurred. I don't know what happened, whether the office was locked or not locked. I assumed it was, What I wouldn't be surprised about is that Mr. Nussbaum go in and at least look on the top of the desk to see if there was a note, I think that would be logical and appropriate. Senator GRAMS. But the White House never did ask to have it sealed, even as of late the next morning, and then there was no lock, there was only a guard posted at the door. We've heard a lot of concern here about national security and everything else, but yet the White House itself never took those steps even though the Park Police were asking for them, even though people like yourself with your legal background and training indicated that this might be a concern, that we want to maintain the integrity of this office. 89 Mr. HUBBELL. Senator, I really don't know. I heard somebody say yesterday that the office was locked. It was opened for an hour and then relocked, but I don't know what happened. Senator GRAMS. That night? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes. Senator GRAMS. But I'm talking about the hours following that and even into the next morning when you had assurances or a thought that the office had been sealed. Even at that time there had been no steps taken to ensure the integrity of that office? Mr. HUBBELL. I don't know what was done, Senator. I wasn't there. Senator GRAMS. Should they have done that, in your opinion? Mr. HUBBELL. I believe they should have locked the office, yes. Senator GRAMS. Now, removing yourself from this set of circumstances and I know the traumatic time that you and your friends went through at this time, but if you could remove yourself from this pertinent case and say it was some other case involving similar circumstances maybe, would you have been questioning the White House role, the interference or the delays rather than the Park Police and the Department of Justice being given that type of access? Would you have had some concern, in your position with the DOJ, of the White House stepping in in this case? Mr. HUBBELL. It's hard for me to answer that question because I don't know that the White House did anything. I mean, there's a presumption that I can't make yet because I don't know what the White House did, other than I know that Bernie was involved in the review of certain files. I don't know that the White House did anything else one way or the other, so it's really hard for me to presume that. I don't think, with hindsight, that it was inappropriate for somebody, the White House Counsel, given the time constraints of the review of the office, that somebody in the White House Counsel's Office would have had to be part of that supervision. When I told Bernie to stay out of it, I really, to be honest with you, wasn't thinking about executive privileges or things of that sort or when the office was going to be reviewed. But it's really difficult, because I just don't know what was done, for me to sit in judgment. I can't sit-the one thing I can say is that I can't segregate the events. You just can't do that. This was a man who had become a brother to Bernie Nussbaum, who had become a brother to Maggie Williams, who was-people were just in such shock, and their feelings were overcoming us all, that you can't segregate what was done from the emotions of the day. I couldn't do that, and I don't know how anybody else could.
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July 19, 1995 - Part 1
(10:30:15) Senator GRAMS. Let's look at someone who could remove himself, .and that was Mr. Heymann, the Deputy Attorney General. According to your deposition, you said that Mr. Heymann was saying the Park Police were on the verge of saying that Nussbaum had interfered with that investigation, and I'll read from that. The question Was, "What sort of problems did Mr. Heymann indicate that it could lead to?" Your answer was, "He thought that the Park Police were close to saying that Bernie had-was interfering with the investigation," 90 That's what I'm trying to ask. If we're looking at someone who is removed from this situation and not as close, no matter what the motive or reasons were, there was the appearance to many that the White House was interfering with this investigation? Mr. HUBBELL. That's what Phil told me, and that's why Phil called, Bernie, I believe, yes. Senator GRAMS. Did you have any conversations with Mr. Nussbaum in the weeks following about how these events unfolded in, say 2 or 3 or 4 weeks after? Did you ever sit down with Mr. Nussbaum and go back and say this was a mistake or why did you do that? Did he try to justify some of the reasons of breaking the agreement with the Park Service, not sealing the office in advance any concerns like that that you raised in your questions with him? Mr. HUBBELL. No, Senator, I did not. I met with Bernie a times, usually talked to him on the phone on a daily basis, but were busy. We had tons of things to do and we did our work, I didn't ever sit down and question him about that. Senator GRAMS. I have no more questions. I'd like to yield what ever time I have remaining to Mr. Chertoff. Mr. CHERTOFF. Thank you, Senator. Mr. Hubbell, if I could come back to a couple of points, I believe you testified a moment ago that on the morning of the 21st, which was the morning immediately after Mr. Foster's death, you called Mr. Burton at the White House about sealing the office; is that cor- rect? Mr. HUBBELL. That's correct. Mr. CHERTOFF. This is something you yourself remember? Mr. HUBBELL. I do remember this, yes. Mr. CHERTOFF. Am I correct that you called, you think, sometime before 8 a.m.? Mr. HUBBELL. I do, although I have to admit my time co way off because I don't think I went to bed until 2 or 3 a. didn't sleep. Then, when you showed me my mobile phone records the next day, it doesn't look like I even called Lisa's house 10 a.m so it could have been later but I believe it was around 8 a.m. Mr. CHERTOFF. It was one of the first things you did? Mr. HUBBELL. It was probably one of the first things I did. Mr. CHERTOFF. Mr. Burton told you that the office had already been secured and locked; correct? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes. Mr. CHERTOFF. He gave you the impression that had been don the night before? Mr. HUBBELL. That's correct. Mr. CHERTOFF. Did he tell you that there had been people from the White House in Mr. Foster's office the previous night shortly before midnight? Mr. HUBBELL. No, he did not. Mr. CHERTOFF. On the morning of the 21st you also had a conversation with Mr. Nussbaum; correct? Mr. HUBBELL. I'm sure I talked to Bernie-oh, on that morning yes, I know I talked to Bernie. Mr. CHERTOFF. That's the conversation in which you advised that he ought to stay out of the matter; correct? 91 Mr. HUBBELL. That's correct, Mr. CHERTOFF. Did he tell you at that time that he himself had been in Mr. Foster's office shortly before midnight the night before? Mr. HUBBELL, No, he did not. I know I had at sometime a conversation with Bernie where I asked Bernie if he found a note, and so the logic is at some point he went in and looked to see if there was a note, but I can't tell you when I had that conversation. Mr. CHERTOFF. Did you have it on the morning of the 21st? Mr. HUBBELL. I don't believe so. I mean, my recollection of the events of the 21st were that we all assembled in David's office and heard the report from the Park Police, and then everybody was rushing to get out of that because they had, I believe, a lot of things to get done, so my conversation with Bernie was very short. It may have been later that day or it could have been the night of Vince's death. I just don't know. Mr. CHERTOFF. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sarbanes. Senator SARBANES. Senator Bryan. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR RICHARD H. BRYAN Senator BRYAN. Thank you very much, Senator. Mr. Hubbell, as I examined the record, I don't see any violation of law. I do see a number of mistakes. As you have provided us an insight into what occurred on the night of July 20, 1993 and immediately thereafter, it seems to me that several things were occurring. I am impressed with the emotional impact that this tragic suicide had upon you and others who, in some instances, knew Mr. Foster for many, many years. There was an obvious solicitude for the Foster family, which was devastated by that news, and so those emotions are profound and they are, to some extent, overpowering.
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