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Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities, June 14, 1973
[00.52.35] Senator BAKER. And you went back and on June, 19, you had a series of meetings with who--with Mr. Mitchell? Mr. MAGRUDER. Well, On June 19, On the Monday, I met, with Gordon Strachan, John Dean, Gordon Liddy, and Hugh Sloan, primarily. Senator BAKER. Did everyoue of those, people know what had occurred, how it occurred? Mr. MAGRUDER. Mr. Strachan did, Mr. Dean did. I do not know whether Mr. -Sloan did or not. He has indicated he. did not. I accept that at face value. Mr. Liddy, of course, did. Senator BAKER. When did you first begin planning the coverup? Mr. MAGRUDER. I think there was no question that the coverup began that, Saturday when we, realized there was a, break-in. I do not think there, was ever any discussion that there would not be, a coverup. At least,, I did not participate in any discussion that indicated anything else except at one point where we possibly thought that, I might volunteer to become the key figure in the case. Senator BAKER. An historic decision to go forward with this plan was followed with another historic decision to cover it up without any great debate or discussion of the matter. Mr. MAGRUDER. That is correct, sir. Now, I think to be, fair, Senator I think at that, point in time, -you have to realize that; One, I -felt, and I can't speak for the, others, that, the President had no knowledge of this plan and consequently, if he had been, if it had gotten out that people like Mr. Mitchell and others had been involved at that point in time, I honestly thought that his reelection would be probably negated. Now, at, that time--- Senator BAKER. Did it ever occur to you--- Mr. MAGRUDER. I knew it was wrong, but I thought it was the best decision to make. Senator BAUER. Did it ever occur to you at that time., and I am not saying this to impugn your character or testimony, but I really want to know, did it ever occur to you that there might be, other alternatives, that one of them might be to report this directly to the President or to the FBI and make a, clean breast of it. at that, moment, that that might have less effect on the election, rather than more effect--- [00.54.47] Mr. MAGRUDER. As I said, we did indicate at one point that we might possibly do that. up to a certain point. I think it was felt that it ever reached Mr. Mitchell before the election, the President would lose, the, election. Since he was not, involved to my knowledge, I thought that was the best decision, I did not think it was a right decision, but I thought it was the best, decision. [00.55.08--THIS IS A VERY TELLING MOMENT, MAGRUDER ANTICIPATES THE TONE OF THE QUESTION AND HINTS AT SOMETHING LARGER] Senator BAKER. Did You think that was a decision for the President to make? Mr. MAGRUDER. Sir, I can't comment as to whether he, did or did not or was involved in I had no dealings directly with the President. Senator BAKER. I am not asking you whether he did or not. that question had been and I am sure will be asked again and again of You and other witnesses. What I am asking you IS whether or not it occurred to you that a decision of that matter ought to be a Presidential decision. Mr. MAGRUDER. I assumed that the higher authorities in the campaign and at the White House would handle it in a way which they thought, was best for the President and I accepted that position Senator BAKER. Is it your testimony, Mr. Magruder---- Mr. MAGRUDER. Since it was also mine, Senator BAKER. Yes, IS it your testimony that, after June 17, in a series of meetings with Mr. Mardian, Mr. testimony Mitchell, and Mr. Dean, there, was never any doubt about your course of action, you were going to go into a coverup operation? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, Sir. Senator BAKER. Was there ever any consideration of presenting this material to the President for his information and knowledge and for his determination? Mr. MAGRUDER. Again. Senator, I -would not have been in a position to do that. It would have been people at the Other level, I do not know what occurred between 'Mr. Mitchell, Mr. Haldeman, Mr. Ehrlichman, and the President, There is no way I would have known that question, an answer to that question, sir. Senator BAKER. Thank you. Mr. Chairman. Senator ERVIN. Senator Inouye. Senator INOUYE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Magruder, in a political campaign, numerous decisions are made in a day's time, hundreds. Some are very Important, some unimportant Some involve major policy decisions, Would you consider intelligence gathering in the major policy category? Mr. MAGRUDER. At that time, I did not. I was personally more involved in what I call the technical operations of the committee, Again. Of the $50 million Mr. Stans has indicated we spent that campaign. most of my time was spent on what I would call the substance of the campaign --the direct mail. the advertising. The intelligence gathering was what it was called, I think Mr. Reisner used the term "throw-away." [00.57.51]
Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities, June 14, 1973
[00.57.51] Senator INOUYE. What about the coverup decision? Mr. MAGRUDER, That -was a major decision. Senator INOUYE. Who would make such a decision? ? Mr. MAGRUDER. Well, as I have said. I think, that everyoue who was involved without hesitation agreed to that coverup. Senator INOUYE. I would like, to remind you of January 4-5 1973, at which time you participated in a panel of the Harvard faculty club library sponsored by the Niemann fellowship program and the' Kennedy Institute. I will read from the transcript: [quoting] Jeb, you keep you keep saying "we decided." and so forth, I have a fair idea of who were making the decisions in the Muskie campaign or maybe the McGovern campaign, but I am really curious about the "we" in your campaign. How was your decision-making done? How much was the President personally involved', What was Mitchell's role" What was Haldeman's role? What decisions were you yourself making? How was as it all working'! MAGRUDER. I thought we always made it very clear how our decisions were made. There was basically a triad -of senior decision-making decision-makers--the he President, Haldeman, and John Mitchell until July of 1972. They were in constant consultation with each other over major activities. [end quoted section] Senator INOUYE. Would you like, to comment, sir? a Mr. MAGRUDER. I think that is absolutely consistent with what I have said. I said that Mr. Mitchell and other high officials agreed with this coverup and to my knowledge, I never knew and I think I clarified later in that statement at Harvard that I, myself, never had any direct dealings with the President. I did know that on key campaign decisions at times there was input from the President, I have no knowledge of any input from the President on this decision. Senator INOUYE. But you would consider this a key, major policy decision? Mr. MAGRUDER. Well, I think the coverup certainly was a key decision, yes. I think there is an inference there,, Senator, though, that is unfair. to the President. I did not say he had participated in every major decision. I said that Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Haldeman were the key conduits from our standpoint and that certainly, obviously, certain decisions the President was involved in. Senator INOUYE. They were in constant consultation with each other over major activities? Mr. MAGRUDER. That is correct. Senator INOUYE. In the intelligence-gathering decision, was the matter of national security involved? Mr. MAGRUDER. NO, sir, not necessarily although I think it should be. clear that in my response to Senator Baker, we. had correctly, I think, put together parts of what I would call the left-wing part of the Democratic Party with each of the anti-war activities and we were concerned about their response to the President's candidacy. Now, I do not recall that national security, but I do think it does relate to some. of the reasons why we did get into an extensive intelligence operation. [01.01.24] Senator INOUYE. Learned commentators have suggested that we have at the present time in the White House, two competing organizations, one headed by Mr. 'Mitchell and the, other, by Mr. Haldeman. Did you have two competing organizations? Mr. MAGRUDER. No; I would disagree with that completely. To my knowledge, in every meeting I ever attended with Mr. Haldeman and Mr. Mitchell, they were on extremely good terms. I never saw, any difficulty in Mr. Haldeman or Mr. Mitchell agreeing. In fact, I think that is one reason Mr. Mitchell agreed to run the, campaign because he, knew Mr. Haldeman would be his chief day-to-day contact at the White House, I disagree with that statement. That has been bandied about, I know. I do not agree with that. Senator INOUYE. Is there a possibility that one group of people, are trying to make another group the scapegoats for this? Mr. MAGRUDER. I cannot--i do not think so. I do not see any evidence of that specific type of activity. Obviously, everyoue now is basically on his own and consequently, it is difficult to say anything is Of coordinated, concerted effort, at this time. I would think most individuals are operating independently of each other at this time- [01.02.48] Senator INOUYE. Several people have been involved in the Watergate and its aftermath, and in most cases, those, involved or identified have Come forth and spoken, either voluntarily or involuntarily. But one, man stands out. He has remained silent. No one seems to be able to move him. Mr. Liddy. Why is he keeping silent, do you know? Mr. MAGRUDER. I have no idea. He is under appeal. I assume he feels he has a better opportunity under appeal than he does by speaking Out now. Senator INOUYE. In your testimony, you discussed Executive, clemency taking care. of the family, paying expenses. Was Mr. Liddy promised anything? Mr. MAGRUDER. My assumption is that he was promised what all the others -were. Senator INOUYE. What were they promised, sir? Mr. MAGRUDER. I do not, know. I only know what I talked about relating to myself Senator INOUYE. What were you promised. sir?, Mr. MAGRUDER. Well, as I indicated before, I talked about, salary, taking care of the family. legal cost. potential Executive clemency, assistance in getting a job, and so on--that type of thing. Senator INOUYE. We have, received testimony that Mr. Strachan was a very important conduit. that. he -was the. liaison---- [01.04.11--TAPE OUT]
Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities, June 14, 1973
[00.02.00--in to Jeb MAGRUDER testifying about links between the CRP and the White House] Mr. MAGRUDER......Mr. Mitchell agreeing. In fact, I think that is one reason Mr. Mitchell agreed to run the, campaign because he, knew Mr. Haldeman would be his chief day-to-day contact at the White House, I disagree with that statement. That has been bandied about, I know. I do not agree with that. Senator INOUYE. Is there a possibility that one group of people, are trying to make another group the scapegoats for this? Mr. MAGRUDER. I cannot--i do not think so. I do not see any evidence of that specific type of activity. Obviously, everyone now is basically on his own and consequently, it is difficult to say anything is Of coordinated, concerted effort, at this time. I would think most individuals are operating independently of each other at this time- Senator INOUYE. Several people have been involved in the Watergate and its aftermath, and in most cases, those, involved or identified have Come forth and spoken, either voluntarily or involuntarily. But one, man stands out. He has remained silent. No one seems to be able to move him. Mr. Liddy. Why is he keeping silent, do you know? Mr. MAGRUDER. I have no idea. He is under appeal. I assume he feels he has a better opportunity under appeal than he does by speaking Out now. Senator INOUYE. In your testimony, you discussed Executive, clemency taking care. of the family, paying expenses. Was Mr. Liddy promised anything? Mr. MAGRUDER. My assumption is that he was promised what all the others -were. Senator INOUYE. What were they promised, sir? Mr. MAGRUDER. I do not, know. I only know what I talked about relating to myself Senator INOUYE. What were you promised. sir?, Mr. MAGRUDER. Well, as I indicated before, I talked about, salary, taking care of the family. legal cost. potential Executive clemency, assistance in getting a job, and so on--that type of thing. [00.04.05] Senator INOUYE. We have, received testimony that Mr. Strachan was a very important conduit. that. he -was the. liaison between the committee and the White House., that on the, other end was Mr. Haldeman. Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. Senator INOUYE. Did you receive any indication that Mr. Strachan did in fact convey those memos and messages that you have been sending to him through Mr. Strachan? Mr. MAGRUDER. Well. Mr. Strachan had a method of working with Mr. Haldeman I am unaware of. because I have seen some of the, documents and that was. he would do a summary sheet capsulizing activities of the campaign, I do not know how often he did it but it was a straightforward memo that condensed much of the information that we would give Mr. Strachan. That was his typical method of dealing with 'Mr. Haldeman I think. Of course, he could give you more information directly. and I gather he usually sent back material when he, thought it was appropriate Senator INOUYE. Did you get any feedback from Mr. Haldeman indicating that he had in fact received memos? Mr. MAGRUDER. No, sir. [00.05.12] Senator INOUYE. You spoke of a conversation with Mr., Charles Colson in February or March 1972 in which -Mr. Colson urged you to approve the Liddy plan, Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. Senator INOUYE. HOW many Liddy plans were in existence at that time? Mr. MAGRUDER. Well, to my knowledge, there was only the one plan that continually was revised downward. Senator INOUYE. So there was no question as to which plan Mr. Liddy was talking about? Mr. MAGRUDER. In that context. I would assume that that is correct. Senator INOUYE. There was no other Liddy--- Mr. MAGRUDER. I knew of no other Liddy plan, no, sir. He was, let me make it clear, doing other minor projects in the intelligence-gathering field but they were, basically of a minor nature. Senator INOUYE. But this was the Liddy plan?, Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. Senator INOUYE. We have received testimony which indicated that you made early morning calls to Key Biscayne right after receipt of the news of the break-in, in fact, a witness testified that you made a call at 4 in the morning. Mr. MAGRUDER. That is incorrect, sir. The only discussion I had with Key Biscayne. was on Sunday with Mr. Haldeman. I talked to the White House, in Washington that day on Saturday. Four in the morning.... Senator INOUYE. Sunday. Mr. MAGRUDER. Sunday, -well, my wife is here and I think she could testify we were, both in bed at that time. We--now, Sunday morning we were, at a fund-- well, a celebrity dinner and it was late when we, got back, late but I do not recall talking to Key Biscayne at that at time in the, morning. Senator INOUYE. You have testified that Mr. Moore and Mr. Liddy met with Mr. Kleindienst at the Burning Tree Country Club. Mr. MAGRUDER. I was told that, sir, yes. Senator INOUYE. . By whom, sir?
Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities, June 14, 1973
[00.07.17] Senator INOUYE. So you are. not personally aware of the conversation? Mr. MAGRUDER. I was in California at the time, sir, and he was, Mr. Liddy was, instructed to go out there. Senator INOUYE. Did you have any conversations with Mr. Kleindienst? Mr. MAGRUDER. No, sir. Senator INOUYE. When you appeared before, the grand jury did the prosecutor ask you anything about Mr. Sloan's testimony that you had requested that he perjure himself? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir, we had a, lengthy discussion with Mr. Silbert and, I think, with Mr. Campbell, I think ink, at that time over that question, and I think they agreed with me, and still do, that there was a difference of opinion. He, was in a certain--he had certain fixed opinions on that situation that I think related more to personal matters, than they did to the, facts in the case. Senator INOUYE. At that time you were lying, were you not? Mr. MAGRUDER. No, sir; not about my discussions, with Mr. Sloan. Senator INOUYE. Why did they not ask you that in the trial? Mr. MAGRUDER. I am sorry. Why did they not ask me? Senator INOUYE. The prosecutors. Mr. MAGRUDER. Which question? Senator INOUYE. About your suggesting to Mr. Sloan that he perjure himself? Mr. MAGRUDER. I do not think that, was relevant to the case was on the. docket, at that time. The case, had nothing to do with Mr. Sloan. Senator INOUYE. It had something to do with the, Watergate, did it not? Mr. MAGRUDER. You would have to ask the prosecutors why they did not ask that, question. I can see no relevance to a disagreement as to exactly was said between Mr. Sloan and I. I think. Senator, just to follow up, the prosecution, I think last week indicated there was still a difference and that they had agreed with my interpretation of that. discussion. Senator INOUYE. I would like to discuss your discussions with Mr. Haldeman. You had one on the telephone at Key Biscayne. Any others after that.? Mr. MAGRUDER. On the Watergate, Senator? Senator INOUYE. Yes. Mr. MAGRUDER. No, until the January discussion. Then, we met with Mr. Mitchell in April and then I had a couple of phone conversations with his assistant when I--just to let him know that I had decided, because I now had retained independent counsel, that I would cooperate and in cooperating that certain people would be Implicated. [00.09.45] Senator INOUYE. Now, when you discussed this matter in January, I presume that you told Mr. Haldeman everything you knew about the coverup? Mr. MAGRUDER. I think my main Purpose was to just indicate that there were a lot of people involved and that in case people's memory was growing short I hoped he realized it was not myself or any other single individual who was Involved in this Senator INOUYE. This was In January? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. Senator INOUYE. Were you surprised when the President announced that He, had decided to begin an investigation on March 21? Mr. MAGRUDER. Was I surprised Senator INOUYE. Yes. [00.10.33] Mr. MAGRUDER Well, knowing full -well of Mr. Dean's role I could well imagine that the President possibly had been informed incorrectly, since he was investigating his own problem, I could See where he could very easily have misled individuals at the White House, to protect himself Senator INOUYE. But you had notified Mr. Haldeman in January Of the correct activities. Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. Senator INOUYE. You expected Mr. Haldeman to communicate with the President did you not? Mr. MAGRUDER. On that matter, sir? Senator INOUYE. Yes. Mr. MAGRUDER. I did not expect--I was talking mainly to be sure that Mr. Porter was taken care of directly after the inaugural and to discuss my own employment situation. I did not expect him to discuss my discussion necessarily With the President unless he felt it was appropriate I did not go to him to go to the President only went to him as the senior man at the White House. Senator INOUYE. But you did discuss the and the coverup, did you not? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes;' but I did it for the purpose Of explaining the total context of the coverup and the Watergate plan. Senator INOUYE. Mr. Magruder, in your testimony this morning you have Indicated that there were several who knew about the coverup such as Mr. LaRue, Mr. Mitchell, Mr. Dean, and I believe you used two words, "and others." Could you tell us about the others? Mr. MAGRUDER. I think Mr., Mardian was to some extent involved.
Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities, June 14, 1973
[00.12.29] Senator INOUYE. I will list a few names. Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. Senator INOUYE. Mr. Dean knew about, the coverup?, Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes. Yes, sir. Senator INOUYE. Mr. Mitchell knew about the, coverup? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. Senator INOUYE. Mr. Haldeman knew about the coverup? Mr. MAGRUDER. Directly from my knowledge only in January I did not know directly before. Senator INOUYE. Mr. Ehrlichman knew about, the coverup? Mr. MAGRUDER. I did not ever know that, Mr. Ehrlichman knew about the coverup. Senator INOUYE. Mr. Kalmbach? Mr. MAGRUDER. I only knew in Mr. Kalmbach's case he was funding the coverup. [Laughter.] Senator INOUYE. Mr. Mardian. Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. Senator ERVIN. I request the audience again to refrain from laughing. Senator INOUYE. Mr. Kleindienst? Mr. MAGRUDER. No, sir, I did not know of any involvement by Mr. Kleindienst Senator INOUYE. Mr. Gray? Mr. MAGRUDER, No, sir, I had no direct knowledge of Mr. Gray's involvement. Senator INOUYE. Mr. Strachan? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes. he was aware of the coverup. Senator INOUYE. Mr. LaRue'? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, he was aware. Senator INOUYE. Mr. Egil Krogh? Mr. MAGRUDER. Mr. Egil Krogh? I cannot specifically recall any direct knowledge that, I would have known that he knew about the coverup. Senator INOUYE. Mr. Colson? Mr. MAGRUDER. I have no direct knowledge that Mr. Colson knew about the coverup. Senator INOUYE. Mr. Howard, Mr. Colson's aide? Mr. MAGRUDER. I don't, think he knew directly about the coverup. I think he realized that we had some, problems that we were taking care of. Senator INOUYE, Mr. Reisner? Mr. MAGRUDER. No. All of the employees of the committee were not involved in the coverup purposely--we made a substantive decision in a sense to be sure. they were not aware of the coverup so that they themselves would not become involved in any problems relating to this coverup. Senator INOUYE. Mr. Stans? Mr. MAGRUDER. Only the. discussion I had in June with Mr. Stans which would indicate some knowledge after that point to some extent. Senator INOUYE. Mr. Sloan? Sloan? ? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, I am sure he knew about the coverup. Senator INOUYE. Mr. Porter. Mr. MAGRUDER. Only to the extent that he has testified that he assisted me for what he thought were legitimate reasons. Senator INOUYE. Mr. Odle ? Mr. MAGRUDER. -No. far as I know he did not- know. Senator INOUYE. Mr. Moore. Mr. MAGRUDER. Again I know Mr. Moore was aware of the trip to Burning Tree Country Club. What Mr. Moore then knew later just. I don't know what Mr. Liddy and Mr. Moore talked about: you would have to talk to Mr. Moore directly. Senator INOUYE. Finally the President? Mr. MAGRUDER. TO my knowledge no, no direct knowledge. Senator INOUYE. Mr. Chairman, I know the time has run out and I thank you very much Thank you very much. Senator ERVIN. The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock. [00.15.30--Senators, Photographers, others, standing to leave room] [00.15.39--LEHRER IN STUDIO] LEHRER states that the Senators will mull over MAGRUDER's "explosive testimony" over lunch break [PBS network ID--title screen "SENATE HEARINGS ON CAMPAIGN ACTIVITIES"] [00.18.07--LEHRER] LEHRER introduces questioning by Sen. WEICKER. [00.18.17--MAGRUDER--ERVIN with gavel] AFTERNOON SESSION THURSDAY. JUNE 14, 1973 Senator ERVIN. The committee will come to order. Senator Weicker. Senator WEICKER. Mr. Magruder, on the chart over there, there is indication you received $20,000. Would you tell the committee exactly how you disbursed that money? Mr. MAGRDUER. Yes. sir. I received a request from the White House to disburse $20,000 to a columnist or writer who had done writing work, as I understood it. for the--either for the White House or in relationship to a book that he was writing and so consequently, he requested it. in cash and I requested from -Mr. Sloan $20,000 and gave it to the Writer. Senator WEICKER. Who was the writer? Mr. MAGRUDER. Mr. Victor Lasky. Senator WEICKER. Victor Lasky ; so you paid $20,000 in Cash to 'Mr., Victor Lasky, is that correct? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes. Sir. Senator WEICKER. -Now. would you tell the committee, I believe you touched upon On.,; this morning you what Mr. Dean told you after your you your August 16 grand w appearance? Mr. MAGRUDER. He simply notified me the next day that I would not be indicted. Senator WEICKER. DO you have any indication as to the basis for that statement Mr. MAGRUDER. My understanding was It was from official sources. [00.20.03]
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Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities, June 14, 1973
[00.20.03] Senator WEICKER. Official sources being what Mr. MAGRUDER. Being the Justice Department. Senator WEICKER. Did you know of any influence exerted by the White House over U.S. attorneys and/or the grand jury? Mr. MAGRUDER. No: I do not. AS a matter of fact, at least in relation to the U.S. attorneys 1 got the opposite impression. Senator WEICKER. You got the opposite impression from whom? Mr. MAGRUDER. Pardon? Senator WIECKER You got the opposite impression from whom? Mr. MAGRUDER. From Mr. Dean, primarily Senator WEICKER. Well, if he gave. you the opposite impression so far as the U.S. attorneys were concerned, who was he talking about when he indicated that you would not be indicted? Mr. MAGRUDER. You were indicating whether there was any influence, My indication from Mr. Dean was that they had no influence over the U.S. attorney. But when evidently the U.S. attorneys had decided not to indict me after the August 16 grand jury appearance, and they transmitted that to the appropriate officials, Mr. Dean evidently -was notified of that fact. Senator WEICKER. Did you ever learn that. Mr. McCord Was receiving information from the Internal Security Division of the Justice Department ? Mr. MAGRUDER. I do not think I knew that before I read it in the papers. But I could not, be--I would not, be sure about. that as a singular fact. He did receive information that he passed on to us at times which I think now, in recollecting probably came from that Division. Senator WEICKER. Now, what did Mr. Strachan do before he went to work for Mr. Haldeman? Mr. MAGRUDER. He worked for me at, the, White House. Senator WEICKER. Now, in the, earliest, part of your testimony this morning, and this will be, a matter- of the. transcript which I have not had an opportunity to review. but, relying on my recollection, in setting the, stage of personnel at the. top level you indicated Mr. Mitchell, Mr. Strachan, liaison to Mr. Haldeman and I thought you said Mr. Haldeman as liaison. Mr., MAGRUDER. Mr. Haldeman was the official, the. senior White House official who dealt, directly and was responsible for--in direct dealings with our committee. Mr. Strachan was his aide in doing the, day-to-day leg work in relation to this. Senator WEICKER. And you indicated during the course of your testimony that you reported matters to Mr. Strachan which you cared to have come to the attention of Mr. Haldeman is that correct? Mr. MAGRUDER. I think what I stated- Senator WEICKER. I am trying to establish the chain. Mr. MAGRUDER. What I think I stated this morning was that all documents and all activity that we engaged in by prior agreement with Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Haldeman went, directly to Mr. Strachan for Mr. Haldeman's perusal or for whatever action he, may deem appropriate. Senator WEICKER. And Mr. Haldeman's function then would be to liaison with the President. is that not, correct? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. [00.23.36--the hypothetical link to President NIXON] Senator WEICKER. All right Now, we are going to try to walk through the particular series of event's all of which were, referred to in your testimony this morning. And they all relate to the conversations that you had with Mr. Strachan. Is it true, Oat the first, conversation that you had with Mr. Strachan about the Liddy project was after the January 22 meeting? Mr. MAGRUDER. To my recollection would have been after. because I cannot recall discussing in any detail the Liddy project with Liddy until he presented it, to Mr. Mitchell. Senator WEICKER. Or any---- Mr. MAGRUDER. There probably were discussions -with Mr. Strachan about the fact that Mr. Liddy was going to do intelligence work for us before that date, but not as to the specifies of his proposal since I saw it for the first time at that meeting. Senator WEICKER. Did you discuss then, I just want to establish this without going into it in great depth unless you care to go into it, are you indicating to me that there might have been discussions with Mr. Strachan about the type of' it project -which was specifically presented to you. at the January 27 meeting prior to January 27? Mr. MAGRUDER. 'No. I simply--I am sure we discussed Mr. Liddy's intelligence-gathering role but since I did not know the specifics of his project, it must have been in general terms. Senator WEICKER. All right. SO we can start then definitely after the January 27 meeting You did report details of that meeting? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. [00.25.30]
Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities, June 14, 1973
[00.25.30] Senator WEICKER. Which related specifically to getting into the Democratic headquarters, bugging et Cetera. it' had some rather unusual features. I am talking about just the $1 million budget. Mr. MAGRUDER. And, excuse me, Senator. the first meeting we did not discuss, as I recall, targets at that time. Senator WEICKER. I see, Just list the general scope and that was reported to Mr. Strachan. Now, we come to the February 4 meeting At this meeting specific targets were discussed. is that not correct? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, Sir. Senator WEICKER. And What targets were discussed? Mr. MAGRUDER. Primarily the Democratic National Committee headquarters in Washington, the Fontainbleau Hotel which was to be their headquarters at the convention, potential Democratic candidates headquarters and the subject of the publisher of the Las Vegas paper came up also. Senator WEICKER. And the Democratic national headquarters? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir, I had mentioned that first. Senator WEICKER. Yes. And this is the so-called economy version of the January -17 meeting stripped down to $500,000 budget, is that correct? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, Sir. Senator WEICKER. And you reported the details of this to Mr. Strachan, is that correct ? Mr. MAGRUDER. Us. sir. In that case I did have this proposal On The blank sheets of paper and as I recollect sent them over to Mr. Strachan. Senator WEICKER. So that Mr. Strachan had both notes of that meeting and possibly also the budget sheets of that meeting? ? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. he would have automatically have had the budget sheets. Senator WEICKER. Now. on March 20, at -least this is the next date I have Mr. Strachan interceded on Mr. Liddy's behalf when, in fact, you had wanted Liddy fired ? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. Senator WEICKER. And He persuaded you, talking about Mr. Strachan, to not object to Mr. Liddy's--I am trying again To paraphrase--not to object to his presence on the scene, and that he would be his intelligence operations underneath the finance committee is that right Mr. MAGRUDER. I think "persuade" is too strong a, word, he talked to Mr. Dean talked to me. Mr. LaRue and I had talked. It was the general opinion from their standpoint, and I then agreed with it-was, that it would be best to let him continue intelligence work,] [00.28.03] Senator WEICKER. But the specific request by or the specific reason for continuing Mr. Liddy on as explained by Mr. Strachan, was not for his legal ability but for his intelligence-gathering ability, is that correct? Mr. MAGRUDER. That is correct. We did not keep him on in that capacity, in this legal capacity, in that committee, he, was transferred to the finance committee. Senator WEICKER. I See. Now, upon your return from the meeting at Key Biscayne, Fla., -which meeting as I understand it was held With John Mitchell would you indicate who else was at the meeting? Mr. MAGRUDER. Fred LaRue. Senator WEICKER. Fred LaRue and John Mitchell, you called Gordon Strachan after getting back to Washington? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, Sir. Senator WEICKER. And what did you tell Mr. Strachan? Mr. MAGRUDER. Simply that the project had been approved at the $250,000 level and what the, targets were and what we--what the plans would be, and which he, had already of course, been aware of. Senator WEICKER. And again, if you Could, just indicate those plans, what those plans were. Mr. MAGRUDER. They were to wiretap the, Democratic national headquarters specifically Mr. O'Brien's office, to possibly if it was appropriate and if we, had the funds to consider the Fontainbleau Hotel which was to be their headquarters at. the convention, and also the McGovern headquarters, or I shouldn't say McGovern, the Democratic presidential candidate's headquarters at that time had not been determined. Senator WEICKER. Did you send to Mr. Strachan at that time the copies of the notes taken at that, meeting with Mr. Mitchell's notation? Mr. MAGRUDER. I would not remember whether I did that. or not, Senator I typically would have destroyed those notes Senator WEICKER. Right. But in any event he was completely apprised as to the content of the Key Biscayne meeting? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes sir. Senator WEICKER. NOW, after Memorial Day, that is the next incident I have in my notes, you informed Mr. Strachan that Gordon Liddy had made a successful entry into the Democratic national headquarters is that correct? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. Senator WEICKER. Anything else, In that particular conversation that you transmitted to Mr. Strachan? Mr. MAGRUDER. No; I am sure there wasn't because at that time had no other-we, had no fruits of their labors. Senator WEICKER. Am I--I don't want ant to move along too fast here, is my chronology correct, were there other times between here where you had conversations with Mr. Strachan relative to these activities. I don't mean others. Mr. MAGRUDER. There could very well have, Senator, but because there, was nothing specific about them I don't, recollect them.
Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities, June 14, 1973
[00.31.02] Senator WEICKER. I just want to make sure that neither I nor you miss them. Now, during the first 2 weeks of June, you must have contacted Mr. Strachan relative to the Gemstone material. is that correct? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. [00.31.23] Senator WEICKER. And in this particular instance, obviously, it must have been considered important to the extent that nothing was sent to the White House. but rather you requested that Mr. Strachan come down to the, Committee To Re-Elect the President. Is that correct? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes. sir. Senator WEICKER. Would you mind telling me as to why you felt that, was the best, way to do things in this instance? Mr. MAGRUDER. These were in effect logs of wiretap conversations and I did not think it was appropriate to Send them over to the White House by messenger. Senator WEICKER. So really., the inhibition was by messenger. You knew they were. going back over to the White House? Mr. MAGRUDER. I am sorry. Most all Of the documents-- in fact. all of the documents in the entire Campaign except the Gemstone file, were automatically sent over by messenger to Mr. Strachan for Mr. Haldeman this was the only document I can recall. these two sets of documents the Gemstone documents that I did not send over by messenger because I thought they -were of a sensitive nature---- Senator WIECKER. Too sensitive. Mr. MAGRUDER. Too sensitive to send over by messenger. Senator WEICKER. SO your transmission of this material was a mental transmission rather than a physical transmission, is that correct I Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, I called him and I told him I had the documents there for his perusal but I would keep them there in my office. Senator WEICKER. I understand . Did he come over? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. Senator WEICKER. Did he look, at them? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes. sir. Senator WEICKER. And I think we can assume that he returned to the White House ? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. Senator WEICKER. Now, we are at June 17. I just want to ask once again as to whether or not there are any other contacts between you and Gordon Strachan prior to the break-in that you feel this committee should know about, Mr. MAGRUDER. I would not recall anything specific. I think probably after the time, Mr. Mitchell indicated to Mr. Liddy HIS dissatisfaction I think I would have normally as a matter of course indicated to Gordon that we had hoped that Mr. Liddy would do a better job on his next go-around, something to that effect. But I do not recollect that. Senator WEICKER. Would you say that Mr. Strachan, on the evening of June 16, was as well briefed on the intelligence operation in the Committee To Re-Elect the President as- anybody within the campaign? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. Senator WEICKER. Now, on June 17, did you call Gordon Strachan? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, I called him Saturday afternoon at some point. Senator WEICKER. And what was the nature of that, conversation? Mr. MAGRUDER. Simply to alert him to the break-in, give. him the, details of what we were doing in Los Angeles and particularly Mr. Mitchell's statement nothing more than a discussion of what happened. Senator WEICKER. When you say give him the, details, what details were you giving him? You were in Los Angeles? Mr. MAGRUDER. Well, we had heard, and I do not think it had been reported by that time through Mr. Odle, that Mr. McCord had been arrested. That is the point that I called Mr. Strachan. We had heard Mr. McCord had been arrested earlier through Mr. Liddy and it became, more official, and any efforts to release him had not, been successful; So we knew that, he would be in jail for a period of time. it Was at that point that at I called him. There was a high degree of concern on our part and 1 imparted that concern, as there was on his part, of course. Senator WEICKER. During that conversation with Mr. Strachan, did you discuss the money in possession of the defendants? Mr. MAGRUDER. As I recall, it, came out in the, evening news that some $5,300 had been found in the defendants possession. We had hoped that it was Democratic money, not our money. But at that time, it was not known as to whose money it was. It was not until Monday when I talked to Mr. Sloan that I knew it was our money. [00.36.06] Senator WEICKER. And on June 18, you received a call from Mr. Haldeman. Is that correct,? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sin Senator WEICKER. And during that, telephone conversation Mr. Haldeman asked, "What happened?'" Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. Senator WEICKER. Well, now, how did you take that question? Did you think he, was referring, to what happened as it related to the particular events of the arrest or did you feel that this -was a "what happened" relative to the, whole operation? Were you surprised that Mr. Haldeman should ask the question, what, happened? Mr. MAGRUDER. NO sir, Senator WEICKER. You were not surprised ? Or yoi were surprised? Mr. MAGRUDER. NO; I was not surprised. Senator WEICKER. In other words, you felt, in this telephone, conversation where he called you, that he truly was trying to find out from scratch as to what occurred ? Mr. MAGRUDER. No, I didn't say that. I was not surprised that he called. [00.37.24]
Ostrich Races
Alternative act for the rodeo circuit: MS two men in ring, pushing along an ostrich, which has rigged on it a pony-style trap rig with two wheels. Sign on cart the bird is pulling says "Ostrich Races." It's a bright sunny day, and spectators are sprinkled throughout the bleachers. This would appear to be a carnival, as some sort of ride is visible over the grandstand. Camera pans to show two other ostrich carts in the distance, each guided by two men (it's hard to tell if they're getting the bird to move or trying to make it stop, but a struggle nonetheless). 01:00:15 THEY'RE OFF -- race starts, and we see that each bird has a driver on the cart. Good following shots of riders (one woman) as they go around the ring.
Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities, June 14, 1973
[00.37.24] Senator WEICKER. Why don't you tell -me, then, your reaction to his call ? Mr. MAGRUDER. I was not surprised that he called me. It was a typical conversation that, I had had many times with Mr. Haldeman, short, to the point. He asked what had happened. I told him to the best of our knowledge. He asked me what statement were, we going to--- I think we had put, out. the, statement but it, hadn't been released to the press at that time. I explained what we were trying to do. He explained his concern that someone, specifically myself, get back to Washington, specifically and get, hold of the situation and got the details and make sure things were handled correctly. Senator WEICKER. Mr. Magruder- Mr. MAGRUDER. As much in a PR sense, Senator, as in any other sense at that point in time. Senator WEICKER. What did you tell him? What did you tell him during the course of that conversation that you did not tell Gordon Strachan during the night before ? Mr. MAGRUDER. I don't think there was any difference in my conversation other than--there probably was no difference in the content of the conversation. It, was simply a factual description of what had happened. Senator WEICKER. Why do you feel, then, that Mr. Haldeman had to go ahead and call you if in fact you had 'given a complete description of the incident to Mr. Strachan, and certainly as far as all the background material was concerned did you make the assumption that, all of this had been transmitted to Mr. Haldeman? Mr. MAGRUDER. I didn't make that assumption. I did not know what background material. I think Mr. Haldeman called me, because of the serious nature of the problem and that this was something that he wanted to directly relate to me on and be. sure that we were taking measures to handle the situation He would call me and had called me periodically during the campaign about various subjects that he felt were important. [00.39.22] Senator WEICKER. Mr. Magruder, do you or did you operate from on the presumption. when You were talking to -Mr. Haldeman, that he knew what this break-in stemmed from Mr. -MAGRUDER. Senator, that is a difficult question to answer. I had to assume that since I communicated completely with Mr. Strachan that these communications -were known to -Mr., Haldeman to some extent. But that is strictly an assumption on my part. At no time until January did I have any Idea, and in fact,. in the January meeting. Mr. Haldeman indicated to me that he did not have any knowledge of the break-in previous to that, So, of course, I assumed it simply because I had been working with his assistant, but that is an assumption and purely that, Senator WEICKER. The reason Why I mention this, of course, is that at, the executive session of the committee, you have indicated approximately what you told me right here. But may I point out, so that, we aren't straining too much at the bit. that we have, just been through a very thorough review as to how the chain of command was and you have clearly set it out to this committee. You have run through a review of the meeting of January 27, the. meeting of February 4. the meeting of -March 20. the meeting of March 30, the meeting after Memorial Day. a meeting Within the first 2 weeks of June, and we have run it right up to June 17, and you have indicated that Mr. Strachan was as well briefed in this operation as you or anyone else and had knowledge of if. And -within that background, there was no question in your mind at all as to why the call from Mr. Haldeman? Mr. MAGRUDER. I think the call was very obvious. The issue was of critical importance and rather than dealing through his aide, he wanted to deal directly with me and Mr. Mitchell in his Case as to the action taken. So he dealt directly with me, In this is case. He did this numerous times in the campaign. Senator WEICKER. But you did not feel that you had to give a backgrounder on the subject, did you ? Mr. MAGRUDER. He did not ask for a backgrounder. recall, Senator WEICKER. Did You, and I want to lay it out here again, did you assume that, he had some knowledge--and I emphasize the. word "assume". Obviously, at this point in time it was strictly on the basis of experience--experience that you had with Mr. Strachan, experience that you had insofar as laying out the. chain of command? Mr. MAGRUDER. It was natural on my part to assume that there was some, knowledge yes. Senator WEICKER. Now, why, just out of curiosity, before you move on to the January meeting, why was everyone concerned as you indicated in your testimony this morning, with the money question? Did Mr. Haldeman seem concerned over the money in his phone call? Mr. MAGRUDER. You mean the $5,300? Senator WEICKER. That is right. Mr. MAGRUDER. I think first, there were, two concerns: Mr. McCord Obviously having been an employee of ours; and second the money, The money was raised after April 7 and was not reported, in direct violation of the new campaign law, and could be traced back directly to the committee So I think they were dual concerns. Those were the two initial concerns of the people I have discussed. [00.43.17]
Coach & Player/Warm-Ups
LS coach and college (or possibly pro) football player on sidelines. Huge stadium behind has a few people in it, and there's a scoreboard, but illegible. Coach sends player into the game (off-screen), then camera stays with him as he shouts instructions 01:11:03 (CSL 381-4) high angle view of end zone before college game, players running out for warm-ups 01:11:10 LS same angle, players doing jumping jacks as marching band performs routine in distance
Archery Competition & Novice Instruction
MS woman archer with bow and arrow, aiming at one of several targets. She lets fly, and the arrow leaves the frame. This is outdoors on a sunny day in what looks like a summer camp 01:15:10 MS small boy with bow and arrow, man beside him showing him how to hold the bow, draw his arm back, etc. The kid takes an awkward shot at the distant target 01:15:21 LS line of archers from first shot (thought these are all men). It's clearly a competition, and the nearest man takes a graceful shot
Playing Ping Pong Popular
LS older man and woman playing ping pong outdoors (she's not so old, could be the man's daughter). A false starts results in a bizarre aperture change, as the cameraman makes an adjustment. Play begins again, and they make a few shots back and forth as a few friends look on, lounging in patio chairs 01:17:50 (CSL 383-33) WS numerous ping pong tales lined up outdoors, lots of games going on at once. a pan and wide shot reveals a lake with canoes, suggesting a resort 01:18:02 (CSL 383-38) back to father and daughter as before
Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities, June 14, 1973
[00.43.17] Senator WEICKER. NOW, let, us move to January 1973. 1 would like to ask a question here. Am I correct in gathering from your testimony that you never spoke or met with Mr. Haldeman from June 18, 1972, to January of 1973? Mr. MAGRUDER. No; that is not. correct, I spoke with him on numerous occasions and met with him on numerous occasions but did not discuss the Watergate situation in substantive detail. We talked about it. I can recall once or twice talking to him about it as a problem, but not in the same sense; more as to handling it from the campaign standpoint in relation to charges made. by Senator McGovern or whatever. Senator WEICKER. Well, now, in your conversation on June, 18 with Mr. Haldeman, his last instruction to you was to get back to Washington, was it not? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. Senator WEICKER. And to get things in hand. Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. Senator WEICKER. And you went back to Washington? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, Sir. Senator WEICKER. Now, after you got, back to Washington and surveyed the scene, did you get back in touch with Mr. Haldeman? Mr. MAGRUDER. No; I got back in touch with Mr. Strachan the Monday night. Well, I talked with Mr. Strachan on Monday. As a matter of fact, he was in Washington, and of course after our meeting on Monday night and after I destroyed the Gemstone file, I related those facts to Mr. Strachan not to Mr. Haldeman. Senator WEICKER. I see. So that aside from incidental matters relating to the campaign, there was no real discussion between yourself and Mr. Haldeman as to the break-in at the, Watergate and related activities between June 18 and January of 1973? Mr. MAGRUDER. To be Very specific, Senator, Mr. Haldeman. an. the way I worked with him when I worked with him and later when I worked for Mr. Mitchell, is I worked strictly through Gordon Strachan in this case,, or one of his assistants, Only when he called me did I respond. I cannot even recall any time, that I initiated a call to Mr. Haldeman. Senator WEICKER. All right. Mr. MAGRUDER. Except In the January meeting , when I requested an interview. Senator WEICKER. _Now we move to January 1970 and the meeting with Mr. Haldeman. The main purpose of this meeting, as I gather it,, was to talk about jobs, for Mr. Porter and yourself is that, correct? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, sir. Senator WEICKER. Now. you have heard Mr. Sloan's testimony in which he said in response to a question that I asked him that it did Produce discussion on his part, the statement, of policy On the case was that no individual who had become a Watergate figure or prominent Government official would be placed In office until the issue was totally resolved. Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes. sir. Senator WEICKER. Can you give me any indication as to why this general policy was excepted in your case? Mr. MAGRUDER. 1 did not know that was the general policy , Senator. Senator WEICKER. Well, what was nature of the conversation between you and 'Mr. Haldeman on jobs? Mr. MAGRUDER. Well, the nature of the discussion was basically, they had considered sending me to the Senate for confirmation for One or two jobs that required Senate confirmation. During that discussion he and I agreed that at this time--at that time--it would be inappropriate to go through that process. We both agreed to that. And so as an interim measure, we agreed to a position that turned out to be Director of Policy Development at the Commerce Department. which happened to be a level 4 job that did not require Senate confirmation And we did not discuss, I think, that job at that time,. We discussed the prospects of that kind of a job as an interim measure until the Watergate situation had been completely Settled. Senator WEICKER. Then after the conversation about jobs was over With. did you Indicate to him your concern about the Watergate matter? Mr. MAGRUDER. It was the other way around, Senator, I Initiated the discussion on the Subject of the Watergate because of what I considered to be beginning memory of difficulties on the part of some of the. participants that I thought could have related to my own particulars situation. Senator WEICKER. And you related it to him at that time in January? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, Sir. Senator WEICKER. The situation as to the Watergate, as to what was going on, relative to your participation and the story being contrived? Mr. MAGRUDER. Yes, and it was particularly at that time also in relation Mr. Porter because he was having difficulty with the personnel department at the White House and I wanted to be sure Mr. Haldeman understood how cooperative Mr. Porter had been. Senator WEICKER. Was this before or--was this conversation with Mr. Haldeman before or after the trial? Mr. MAGRUDER. It was before the trial before the inauguration, sometime early in January, after the first of the year. [00.48.54]