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August 4, 1994 - Part 11
(21:35:46) The CHAIRMAN. Well, let me take it and I want to make sure it's within our scope because sometimes things can be made public but we can't, in effect, officialize them through this if they're not within our scope, but if it is and there's no objection, I'll make it part of the record. Go ahead, Senator. Senator FAIRCLOTH. May I ask the question and if it's not in scope, we'll drop right there. The CHAIRMAN. Yes, thank you. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Clifford Sloan's notes from his September 29th meeting with Jean Hanson talk about a lot of things. They say that the RTC referrals contained allegations about Jim Guy Tucker and that the 1984 Clinton for Governor campaign was being examined as a possible co-conspirator. Can he answer that? The CHAIRMAN. What was Mr. LINDSEY. I think I have answered that to Senator Mack. Let me repeat. I have one set of notes. Mr. Sloan has two sets of notes. His notes are dated September 30th and October 7th. My one note is undated, but it contains information that is included in both his September 30th and his October 7 notes. So it is clear to me from that that I had that discussion with Mr. Sloan after October 7th-- or after October 7th. So I do not believe I knew that information prior to the meeting. Senator FAIRCLOTH. All right. This. one, if it's out of order, I'll stop it. Did you handle any press inquiries about whether there was any connection between Jim Guy Tucker being named in those RTC referrals and the fact that he had received 1.-$1.1 million in Government-backed loans that were supposed to go to minority or disadvantaged borrowers? The CHAIRMAN. Senator Faircloth--- Senator FAIRCLOTH. That one out? The CHAIRMAN. I would say it is. Senator FAIRCLOTH. All right. My next question. The CHAIRMAN. May I just say, without taking any of your time to do so, I appreciate very much your cooperation on this issue. I thank you for that. Senator FAIRCLOTH. I will go on to the new witness. Thank you for the fair way you've conducted the hearing. Mr. Stephanopoulos, this past Tuesday evening during Roger Altman's testing, I saw one of your friends from the Clinton campaign who is currently serving as a political consultant and damage control specialist for President Clinton, Paul Negala. He was sitting in the back of the room at around 12:45 watching Mr. Altman's performance before the Committee. My question is, prior to your appearance before us today, have You had any communication with an outside political consultant concerning your testimony here today? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. No, sir. 456 Senator FAIRCLOTH. You have not been prompted by a political consultant? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. No, sir, not at all. I've come here to swer your questions just as I have answered them before other Committee-- Senator FAIRCLOTH. Other than your attorney who, if one, cussed your testimony with prior to your appearance here Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Say that again, sir. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Other than your attorney, with whom have you discussed your appearance here today? I mean your testimony. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Nothing substantive, sir. I would say that everything I've said here today, I have said dozens of times both in sworn testimony to the Independent Counsel, the Office of Government Ethics. I've also had to speak to it publicly, sir, because there were many leaks not only from the Grand Jury but from other areas about the scope of my testimony. I would ask if that's in the scope of this hearing but I'm happy to answer it. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Faircloth. I don't see any requests at this time on my side, so Mr. LINDSEY. Mr. Chairman, again we're very good at correcting the record. Mr. Podesta says I indicated The CHAIRMAN. That's what this hearing is all about is getting the record corrected. We'll take any and all corrections. I just want to make sure that we've got all of them. Mr. LINDSEY. Mr. Podesta says that I said in response to a question from Mr. Shelby that the checks were dated October 4 or 5, it was April 4 or 5. Again, it was The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bennett. Senator SARBANES. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to tell one quick story. We did a conference on the House side on a committee bill that went very late at night-this is with reference to Mr. Nussbaum who is coming next-and at about 3:00 in the morning Senator Bryan who is not a conferee arrived having gone home and slept and gotten up and showered and came in and he wanted to be allowed to participate in the conference.
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August 4, 1994 - Part 11
(21:40:28) Of course, he was absolutely fresh and the rest of us were somewhat on the ropes and I want to tell you that he completely dominated the conference at that time. And I just sort of think this story is somewhat relevant as we think of the fact that we have yet another witness coming who, I assume, has somewhat like Senator Bryan been resting himself and preparing for this Senator BOXER. Plus he's very excited anyway. [Laughter.] Senator KERRY. So let's get him on. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bennett, did you have Senator BENNETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I do. At the end of my last exchange with Mr. Stephanopoulos I had a number of very powerful questions that I could hardly wait to ask that have now gone stale as have I. And I will save them for my summation on the Floor or whenever and we won't have that exchange because of the hour. 457 But I would like just for the sake of helping me understand some things and not to score any points off anybody or anything else, go back once again to the fateful day when, according to Mr. Steiner's diary, Mr. Stephanopoulos and Mr. Ickes called to say that Bill Clinton was furious. They also asked how Jay Stephens the former attorney had been hired and so on and so forth. And we've been over the words of his diary so many times I won't bother to repeat them. I've been looking at your statements here. You, Mr. Stephanopoulos, in your opening statement do not mention-well, I'll get it exactly. Other than a sentence that I find highly ironic in this circumstance, "Mr. Steiner was my regular point of contact at Treasury for obtaining information that affected Administration policy." Given the things that have been said back and forth today I'm not sure that will still be the case. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. It still is the case. Senator BENNETT. You talk about blowing off steam with respect to Mr. Stephens, you've had your conversation with Senator Hatch about that and then you say "I believe later that day I had a conversation with Harold Ickes and Roger Altman during which the subject of his recusal was discussed." This says a "conversation." Was that a phone call? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Yes, sir. Senator BENNETT. Because that's the context that everyone puts it in. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Yes. senator BENNETT. Now, from the diary, one can draw the inference, it isn't stated specifically but one could draw the inference, that the conversation about Jay Stephens and the conversation about the recusal were the same phone call. Do you have any memory, either one of you, because presumably, Mr. Ickes, you were in on this phone call, indeed, you say in your opening statement, Mr. Stephanopoulos and I called Mr. Altman immediately to confirm that was true. Were the two subjects brought up at the same Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. There were two separate phone calls, Senator. Let me go over it again as I did in my opening statement. Senator BENNETT. That's all I need. Was Mr. Ickes in on the first phone call? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. No, sir. Senator BENNETT. So the first phone call vis-a-vis Jay Stephens was strictly you? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS, Yes, sir. Senator BENNETT. And to whom was it placed? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Again, I don't know who placed the phone I was having a conversation with Mr. Steiner that be an dis- cussing the issue of Mr. Altman's recusal to The New York Times. Senator BENNETT, OK, that helps clear it, So that the phone call ill which the exchange regarding Mr. Stephens was between you and Mr. Steiner? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Yes, sir. Senator BENNETT. And the phone call regarding the recusal in which Mr. Ickes joined was with Mr. Altman? 458 Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Yes, sir, but the issue of the recusal Was also discussed in the conversation with Mr. Steiner. Senator BENNETT. That would explain why his diary Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. I can't explain his diary, Senator, I can just tell you what happened.
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August 4, 1994 - Part 11
(21:44:50) Senator BENNETT. But that helps clear that up and I thank you. I just want to make one quick editorial comment. As weird as all of this procedure seems to be, and it's a brand-new experience for me, I find amazingly and incredibly, in my case, it's working. I'm beginning to think I understand what happened. I know that sounds absolutely incredible given what we have been through, but I'm beginning to get a picture. Now it may be a different picture than some of my friends here, and it may be a different picture than you have or that Mr. Altman has or whatever, but somehow in all of the tumbling around and beating around, the mud is coming off the diamond and it's beginning to shine. And I'm beginning to get what I consider to be a fairly clear picture of what happened and think I can sit down when it's all over and if I were on a jury be prepared to vote with some conviction as to what I think the facts are, so brutal as it is may be as a process, 1, for one, am finding it useful. The CHAIRMAN. We will be very interested in hearing what those thoughts are. Senator KERRY. Mr. Chairman, I just want to say to my colleague that he might be interested to note also in the Altman deposition that in that conversation referred to, that you just referred to, Mr. Altman denies that he was asked to do anything with respect to Jay Stephens or that there was any Senator BENNETT. I understand that. Senator BOXER. Would my colleague yield? The CHAIRMAN. The time is up. Senator DAMATO. We'll yield it to you. Senator BOXER. I would like to just call attention to one sentence in Mr. Steiner's testimony before this Committee when he's asked about his comments about Mr. Stephanopoulos saying something to the effect of how can we get rid of Mr. Stephens. He says "as I've said before my intention in keeping this diary was not to give you a precise narrative of the events that occurred. I often use shorthand." I just want to call attention to that at this point in the record. The CHAIRMAN. Who's got time? Senator BENNETT. I can't resist I put an article in the record this morning and I told myself I wouldn't say this but I'm now punchy enough that I've got an excuse later on where Richard Cohen'sRichard Cohen's column says "diary fibbing is now going to take its place alongside not inhaling as a way of ridiculing the Clinton Administration." That may not be fair but that's not the same thing as it's undeserved. Senator KERRY. You're right. Senator BOXER. He's honest about that, it's not fair. Senator D'AMATO. Mr. Chairman, we have some time left. The clock goes on so. 459 Senator MURRAY. Mr. Chairman, can I raise a procedural question one more time now that it's 10 to 10:00? How much more time you expect this panel to be in front of us? The CHAIRMAN, I just asked that question to Senator D'Amato. He thought that there was probably another 30 minutes on his side but he can speak to that directly if he wishes to. Senator D'AMATO. Well, I believe it's about 30 minutes or maybe less. We're drawing to a point where most of the questions have, if not all, of them-I know one of my colleagues has a series of questions to propound. I have a question and an observation. Of course when I make the observation, it will probably be who knows how many minutes of discourse but I think we're down to about a half hour. Senator MURRAY. Mr. Chairman, I'll just make an editorial comment. This is beginning to remind me when I taught preschool and one of my 4-year-olds always had to have the last word. It was tough to end an argument. [Laughter.] Senator DAMATO. Well, I guess you haven't changed, have you? Senator KERRY. Tonight, America is going to get Leno, Letterman and Nussbaum. [Laughter.] The CHAIRMAN. Well, if I may, everybody is tired. It's been a long, punishing week and that's true for the witnesses as well as for the Members and we're nearing the conclusion here. I think Members that have questions are going to be permitted to ask them, we'll get the answers and as soon as we can finish, we'll be done. No one wants to be done any sooner than do 1. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Mr. Chairman, can we just make sure that it's a question that hasn't been asked already or asked already more than once because we've had a lot of that. The CHAIRMAN. Well, let me just say on that point, what often happens, Senators come and go and so a question gets asked by one Senator while another Senator is out of the room, and when they come back, they have not heard that and so they-and that happens on both sides. It's the nature of the problem. I think when questions are being asked repetitively when the same people are in the room, then that's not justified and that certainly is a point that I think you're making. So let's hope we don't have any of that but let's proceed rand see if we can't finish up here.
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August 4, 1994 - Part 11
(21:50:11) Senator D'AMATO. Mr. Chairman, I believe Senator Mack--Senator Domenici, are you ready to make inquiry? Senator DOMENICI. I'm going to ask one question and make one observation. Mr. Podesta, a lot has been made, perhaps you're not aware of this, but during previous testimony that Legal Counsel for the Treasury Department, Ms. Hanson, had some major responsibility to correct the record. Once you found out about it, did you have any less responsibility and if you did, why didn't you see to it that the record was corrected? Mr. PODESTA. Senator, I think that the Administration has a duty to this Committee. As I said in my opening statement, I worked up here for a long time. I think we had a duty to you. That was what my phone call to Mr. Altman was about, was trying to find the best way to make sure the record was complete. Senator D'AMATO. For which I commend you. 460 Mr. PODESTA. And I just hope you understand that in the wake of that, in the wake of the criticism of the contacts with regardwe received a subpoena-that we thought it was not reasonable at that point to go forward talking to Treasury about their testimony what we had said and what Mr. Altman had said, and that's, I think, the best explanation I can give you for what our conduct was. Senator DOMENICI, So you're saying when Mr. Fiske issued the: subpoenas, either to you or the White House or the White House and you, that at that point you thought or were you given legal advice that perhaps you should not proceed any further with this matter? I don't understand the nature of the subpoenas. We're hearing a lot about Mr. PODESTA. Senator, the inquiry that the subpoenas were directed at was who said what to who, and I think that having more contacts in that context would have been criticized, And I think it would have been fairly criticized. So while I think people have expressed regret in these hearings about some of their conduct, the one thing I do not regret is that we did not talk to Treasury further. about the testimony or about their supplements to the testimony or the letters. Senator DOMENICI. I have one observation and frankly it may be because I don't understand all of the dynamics and the lawsuits and the pressure you're under; Mr. Stephanopoulos, with reference to all of this various testimony under oath and I gather there's a lot of that. You've testified many, many times under oath. You've stated that here. I do want to tell you honestly, while I was not as familiar with your work in the Congress as was Mr. Gephardt, for whom you worked, I did serve one time for 12 or 14 days when we put together a big economic package. And I really found that your abilities were rather spectacular, including your ability to summarize, your ability to recall, your ability to wrap up a meeting and remember everything that occurred, during the day. And I must tell you, I read your deposition and-I'm dumb founded that so many answers say "I don't recall" and "I don't remember." I just have to tell you that on the record, and you're really free to answer right now. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. I'm happy to answer, sir, and thank you. I would just say I also spent several hours before this Committee in depositions giving full accounts of everything that I did. If you.. ask me looking back 5 months what I remember, if I can remember-, every word of a conversation, a phone conversation that lasted between 30 seconds and 2 minutes, my honest answer, like everybody else in this room, is no. I simply cannot remember word of a conversation 5 months ago. I would also say, and just give you a picture of my day on Friday, February 25th. said, I'm a staffer. You know that I'm a staffer. I've done that a long time. Like many of your staffers, I'm required to go issue to issue very quickly. On that day, I began work at 6-00 a.m. I was at work immediately--- Senator DOMENICI. Which day are you referring to? 461 Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. This is Friday, February 25th. I received phone calls immediately at 6:00 a.m. about the Hebron Massacre because we had to come up with a response for the Today Show on television. I was dealing with that from about 6:00 to 8:00 in the morning. We immediately went from that to help staff the President on a meeting he had with several Senators, maybe some in this room, about Aldrich Ames. I had to go from that to help staff a meeting on Health Care. I think I probably had two separate lunches that day and a reception and probably 30 or 40 phone calls.
August 4, 1994 - Part 11
(21:55:25) This was a tiny sliver, 30 minutes, 30 seconds to 2 minutes of a 14-hour day in which I had probably 100 conversations. And frankly, sir, I remember an awful lot about that conversation, given the context of that day, and I've told you everything that I have told every other Committee. I've remembered a lot about that day. I've remembered it to the best of my ability, and I have done the best I can, and I think I've been very direct in answering your questions, and I would finally just say and I feel because I know that people are watching, I want to repeat it again. This has been looked at by the Special Counsel Robert Fiske. He found no criminal violations-please let me finish, Senator-this was found by the Office of Government Ethics Senator DOMENICI. Don't tell me how to behave. Please don't tell me "let me finish." I didn't even say a word. OK? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Yes, sir. I would like to complete the statement. Senator DOMENICI. Unless I speak up, you don't have to admonish me or ask me for anything. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS, Yes, sir. It was looked at by the Office of Government Ethics. Every single one of these questions was asked dozens of times. They were all answered. The Office of Government Ethics found no ethical violations. It was looked at by Lloyd Cutler, the Counsel. Every single one of these questions was asked dozens of times. He found no ethical violations. I have been asked this by numerous news outlets in public several times. This has been gone over and over and over and over and over again. I remember an awful lot of it. I did not direct anybody to interfere in any investigation. I did not interfere in any investigation. No one in the White House interfered in any investigation, and that's what these Committee hearings are going to find. Senator DOMENICI. Let me first say I never did accuse you of that so Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. No, I didn't suggest that you did. I just wanted to repeat it. Senator DOMENICI. In fact, I'm not sure that's why you're here, because someone accuses you of interfering in a criminal investigation Frankly, I wanted to know some very basic questions. After reading your deposition it's clear there's not very much use in asking you some of those questions because you don't recall and that's what I was alluding to. Mr- Podesta, your answer said to me that there was a wall because of the subpoenas and the like. But I don't think I asked you 462 why you hadn't talked to Treasury about it. I think I asked youwhether you thought you had fulfilled your responsibility to correct' the record or did you think it was only Treasury's responsibility.,' Mr. PODESTA. I thought it was ours. I placed the call to Mr. Alt,. man. I thought that that was why I placed the call to Mr. Altman.-, It was my understanding at the time, faulty I think, that with regard to the matter that we thought needed-absolutely neededcorrection, which was the two fall meetings, that that had been done. I think that you have to read the letter and connect the dots back to the question to Senator Bond to take that information out of there, but I thought that information had been provided. Senator DOMENICI, Thank you. Senator SARBANES. Is there anyone on this side who wishes to ask a question? Senator D'Amato, we'll come back to you then, I guess. Senator DAMATO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to make an observation. There's been some controversy, to say the least, as it relates to how we should interpret Mr. Steiner's diary. Some of us believe that it is the best evidence as it relates to what really, truly took place, Others point to Mr. Steiner's more recent recollections, and his testimony as indicating there may be a difference and that of others. Now, Josh Steiner obviously made a judgment. He made judgments that he recorded. Indeed, some of them may have been subjective judgments. He made a judgment that he recorded about the President's state of mind in his diary. He said--I believe the word was "furious." And the question of Roger Altman relating this to him. Now, some have disputed that. Some have even gone so far as to say, and I think this evening we've heard testimony from Mr. Stephanopoulos, as I recall several hours ago, that on that particular Friday in the afternoon, he went into see the President, and the President wasn't upset, not to mention furious, wasn't upset, Is that a fair characterization of what you
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