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August 4, 1994 - Part 11
(22:00:17) Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Sir, I would point out as I said earlier today, I had that conversation with the President after any conversations with Mr. Steiner, so I don't know how he could have gotten that idea at all but it couldn't be from anything I said because I hadn't talked to the President. Senator DAMATO. I didn't say you said that. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. But I wanted to make sure the time was clear. It wasn't until after Senator D'AMATO. You made the observation that the President wasn't upset. I would point out that if we believe that this was not a fair and accurate representation, and I know there's a difference and particularly when it relates to how you would interpret the reactions of someone who is rather powerful, the President of the United States. Someone might say furious, someone might say upset, but Josh Steiner, if you believe that he didn't get this information, he had to be a soothsayer, a soothsayer. Because last evening, fully 5 months later, the President of the United States did indicate that he was upset. He qualified why, but he did indicate it. So this is my observation, that's a pretty doggone good, reliable document to go to before people began to get involved in tor- 463 turing what we found in that diary and attempting to place different lights upon it. Now, that's my observation, and I yield the balance of my time to Senator Mack. By the way, 1 might say that in the Office of Government and Ethics report, it's worthy of note, that it says because "your authority as Secretary of Treasury relates to employees of Democrats" --"the Department," excuse me, "the report of the Inspector General is necessarily focused upon the activities of the officials of the Treasury Department." Now, for that reason, our analysis is not intended to cover, nor should it in any way reflect upon, the actions of the individuals who are employed by the White House. We have heard repeatedly now, repeatedly every witness just about, well, we have been cleared by the Office of Government Ethics, That is not the case. There has been that little qualifier. I might say that's on page 2, and so I just think that's an important distinction, a very important distinction to make, and I yield my time to Senator Mack. Senator MACK. Mr. Lindsey, if we could pick up on the conversation we were having a little while ago. Mr. LINDSEY. Yes, sir. Senator MACK. I wanted to start with again, a point we do agree upon, and that is on October the 4th, when you're with the President, you've already had a conversation with Mr. Sloan. Mr. LINDSEY. What I believe was a fairly short conversation, yes. Senator MACK, But I think you said earlier that in that short conversation, he passed on to you the information that Ms. Hanson had given to him about the 9 referrals and that the Clintons were named as witnesses. Mr. LINDSEY. Again, I'm not sure he said 9 referrals, but he did indicate that there were referrals with respect to Madison, and that the Clintons were mentioned. I don't know at that point if he used the word "witness." Senator MACK. That's fine. Now, I want to go to this phone call that you get. We're assuming it came from Lyons and you didn't make the call. Mr. LINDSEY. Right. Senator MACK. And Lyons informs you of some rumors, that there are some referrals out there and that they may include something to do with the Clintons? Mr. LINDSEY. He indicated to me he had press inquiries, members of the press had called him, that they had also called another person who was involved in the 1992 campaign, and that in those Press inquiries or in those conversations, the press had indicated that they were aware that there were these referrals. Senator MACK. Say that to me again. Mr. LINDSEY. That the press was aware there were these referrals, Sometime after that, in a conversation with the President, I indicated to him that I talked to Jim Lyons, that the press apparently was aware that there were referrals, criminal referrals, that I understood there were referrals with respect to Madison, and that the Clintons were somehow mentioned in the referrals, but not as targets or subjects. 464 Senator MACK. So you confirmed, then, with the President that there were these referrals out there. Mr. LINDSEY. Yes. I thought, you know, with the press calling Jim Lyons and other people, that a story was imminent, It turned out that no one wrote about it for another 3 weeks. But at the time I thought it was clear there were going to be stories shortly about the referrals. Senator MACK. Again, let's go back to the conversation with Lyons. What was your reaction when he called you? I mean, how did you respond to the information he had given you? What did you say back to him?
August 4, 1994 - Part 11
(22:05:30) Mr. LINDSEY. I don't remember. Senator MACK. I mean, let me toss out something. Did you say something like, we had heard that there was some information? Mr. LINDSEY. Senator Mack, I really-I don't have any specific recollection of the conversation at all. Senator MACK, No, you do have some recollection of the conversation. You just told me you remembered that he said something about the press leaks and about referrals. Mr. LINDSEY. Actually, I have a note that reflects what he told me. I couldn't tell you Senator MACK. Do we have that note? Mr. LINDSEY. I don't believe so. Senator MACK. I wonder if we could get that note? My question is apparently, Mr. Lindsey kept some notes of a phone conversation from Mr. Lyons, and Mr. Lindsey was having difficulty in remembering what that conversation was. He was able to confirm thatmaybe we're going to get-are those the notes? The CHAIRMAN. If there's any note that he has that falls within the scope of our inquiry, we should have received it by now, and I would assume that we have. So my first question would be, is this a document that is within our scope or beyond our scope? Mr. LINDSEY. In my opinion, this document does not relate to White House-Treasury contacts. It involves a conversation with a private attorney about press inquiries he had received from reporters. Senator DAMATO. This is 2 days after the contact. Mr. LINDSEY. I don't have any objection to the Committee having it. Senator DAMATO. OK. The CHAIRMAN. I don't have any objection. Let's let the Counsel look at it to make sure that we're not going beyond what we're sup posed to do at this point. Senator BOXER. Mr. Chairman, while you're doing that, can I make a point of procedure here, ask the two leaders here. We are now, as I calculate it, about 7 hours that these four people have been here at this table. I'm ready to call Amnesty International. They're becoming political prisoners. [Laughter.] The CHAIRMAN. They're on their way. Senator BOXER. They haven't eaten, no bread-well, water, yes. I fervently hope that we can get on to the next panel. The CHAIRMAN. I think, if I may say, I want to accommodate, and I've done everything I can to accommodate, everybody that has questions to ask. I think your point is very well taken. We've been 465 here a long time. We've covered a lot of ground. I'm not sure that we're plowing new ground. Let's take a look at this, however, I would add my voice to Senator Boxer's appeal that within a short period of time, we try to finish, if we possibly can. I say that also out of respect not just to these individuals but the next witness that's coming, who is an important witness. I think we need some time with that witness as well and we've already made a commitment between ourselves we'll finish with that witness tonight so senator MACK. Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Mack. Senator MACK. I think frankly I have asked the questions I wanted to ask. It's just when Mr. Lindsey indicated that there were notes of this conversation, we were having difficulty reconstructing, I thought it might have been helpful if we could have had those notes. And I assume The CHAIRMAN. The opinion of my Counsel is that he thinks arguably it would fall within the scope. You have no objection. Let's make it a part of the record. Do you want to take a look at it? I Senator MACK. That would be fine, if you make it part of the record. Senator SHELBY. Mr. Chairman, just an inquiry. When does Letterman, Leno come on? Do they come on, what time, in another hour or so? [Laughter.] The CHAIRMAN. They're on our next panel. [Laughter.] Senator SHELBY. Mr. Chairman, they generally bring out the cots when we're around the Capitol. Maybe they can bring out some for everybody. The CHAIRMAN. I'm told by Senator DAmato we're very close to being finished on this side. I've had no more requests for time on this side. Senator MACK. I only really have, I think, one more comment to -make. The CHAIRMAN. Let's take it now and perhaps we can finish. Mr. LINDSEY. Senator Mack, this note is a note of a conversation I had with Mr. Lyons while I was in San Francisco, on that trip, and as you see halfway down, it says "Gerth Isikoff"---"RTC source FIRREA," "9 criminal referrals." What I remember about the conversation is based on the fact of this note.
August 4, 1994 - Part 11
(22:20:15) Mr. Nussbaum, while you're standing, let me administer the oath right now. Do you swear that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? TESTIMONY OF BERNARD W. NUSSBAUM, FORMER COUNSEL TO THE PRESIDENT; PARTNER---WACHTELL, LIPTON, ROSEN & KATZ, NEW YORK, NY Mr. NUSSBAUM. I do, sir. The CHAIRMAN. I understand you have a statement and we'd like to lead off with that and then we'll go to questions. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before I read my statement, I just want to say to you, Mr. Chairman, that I've been watching some of these hearings on TV and because of the concerns that have been expressed at this hearing, I want to assure you, Mr. Chairman, that first- I know it's late in the evening, but I will not be throwing any furniture around the room. I want to assure you of that, sir. Two, I will try to read my statement in a tone of voice more subdued than I normally read a luncheon menu. And three, I will make every effort, Mr. Chairman, to keep this boundless excitement that I apparently carry around with me, in the eyes of certain people, I'll try to keep that under control. And let me say, finally, before I start reading my statement, that I've already expressed these feelings and my intentions to Joshua Steiner who will later provide a definitive interpretation of what I meant. [Laughter.] The CHAIRMAN. That was said in sort of an intimidating manner. [Laughter.] 467 And I was thinking of recusing myself. [Laughter.] But I want to sleep on it. [Laughter.] And make a decision tomorrow. [Laughter.] Mr. NUSSBAUM. Mr. Chairman, I've already failed, as I can see, Senator BENNETT. Mr. Chairman, I'm feeling intense pressure. [Laughter.] Senator KERRY. If you can keep this going, you are going to beat Leno and Letterman. [Laughter.] Mr. NUSSBAUM. No, I'm not going to keep it going, Senator Kerry. Now, on more serious matters, because believe me, gentlemen, I do take this hearing very seriously. Mr. Chairman again, Senator DAmato, and Members of the Committee: I was Counsel to the President of the United States from January 20, 1993 until April 5, 1994. I was deeply honored to serve my country. This was an extraor dinarily challenging and rewarding position. I will never forget it, and I will always be grateful for the opportunity to serve. We are here today to talk about issues which have significant consequences for the operation of the Executive Branch. How should the White House Counsel conduct himself or herself when a Federal agency is conducting an investigation that does, or might, involve the President? Can there ever be any contact between that agency and the White House with respect to that investigation? As you will see, I do not believe there is, or can be, any flat prohibition against contacts between the agency and the White House. Issues may arise in the context of such an investigation that implicate broader policy issues or indeed, the proper functioning of the Executive Branch. In these circumstances, categorically to prohibit contacts with the White House would weaken the Presidency and do violence to the President's role in our Constitutional scheme. I am here specifically to discuss with you certain meetings I had with Treasury officials in September and October 1993 and February 1994 relating to the Madison/Whitewater matter. I will describe to you in some detail what happened during those meetings. But I also wish to make it clear at the outset what did not happen. I did not, nor, as far as I am aware, did anyone else at the White House ever seek to direct the outcome of or interfere with that investigation. That would have been manifestly improper. 'That did not happen. In my view-and I hope yours when you understand what occurred-these meetings were proper, They were proper because, in Ways I will describe, they facilitated the proper functioning of the Executive Branch. They enabled the White House to perform its official duties. They furthered legitimate public purposes. I will explain to you what I was thinking as I took the actions I will describe. There are some, some in this room, some outside this room, who looking back disagree with my judgments. But I hope you will come to understand that throughout my term in office, I sought to conduct myself in the highest traditions of public service and of my profession. I believe I did so.
Endurance Flight Record Smashed
High contrast, not bad in imagery Rain-drenched crowd sends up ovation to long-time cloud men when hunter brothers' record falls. Wives pack dinner pails for fliers as 'greater St. Louis' circles over field in 555th hour.