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August 3, 1994 - Part 8
(19:20:34) Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. And so I guess I'll just do a summary question, then, with regard to this entire panel. Again, there's-a lot of this ground has been covered and these questions have been asked, I just want to make sure the record was clarified with regard to specifics of the procedures-the ethics procedures that are set forth for White House Counsel. In your opinion, were all of the procedures-were the procedures followed with regard to the activities of the White House Counsel's staff in regards to any of the contacts involving the Whitewater/ Madison Guaranty matter? I may have asked this question already. Did I? This is a question I asked already, so strike that. Strike that. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Moseley-Braun. I want to make sure, has everybody in this round had an opportunity, other than Senator Murray? Is she the only one who remains who has not had a chance? Senator DODD. We all know what that chair is like. I want you to know that. We've all been there. Senator SHELBY. Mr. Chairman, I want to tell you, I think Sen- ator Murray was right about holding us to seven minutes. Otherwise it would be 10:00 or 11:00 at 10 minutes. Senator MURRAY. I'm getting really used to talking to empty chairs and nobody out here. That's all right. Mr. Eggleston, did you undertake legal research to confirm that it was appropriate for you and Mr. Sloan to be receiving the information that Ms. Hanson was providing you? Mr. EGGLESTON. I did undertake some admittedly limited le research. Senator MURRAY. And you concluded 145 Mr. EGGLESTON. I concluded under the circumstances it was appropriate. Senator MURRAY. So all contact was appropriate? Mr. EGGLESTON. Well, the issue-I'm sorry. The issue I was looking at was the issue of the receipt of information about the criminal referral. I didn't research the other issues about the contacts. Senator MURRAY. But the criminal referral communications were proper from everything you looked at? Mr. EGGLESTON. From what I understood about what the comunications were, yes. Senator MURRAY. Ms. Nolan, what is your title? Ms. NOLAN. Associate Counsel to the President. Senator MURRAY. And you've been in that position how long? Ms. NOLAN. Since February 1993. Senator MURRAY. And you previously taught law? Ms. NOLAN. That's correct. Senator MURRAY. Legal ethics, right? Ms. NOLAN. Legal ethics, Constitutional law and a course in Government ethics. Senator MURRAY. I understand that prior to that you served in the Reagan Administration at the Department of Justice. Ms. NOLAN. Yes, I was a career attorney in the Department of Justice, Office of Legal Counsel. Senator MURRAY. And you're a graduate of Georgetown Univer sity Law Center. Ms. NOLAN. Yes. Senator MURRAY. With honors? Ms. NOLAN. Yes. Senator MURRAY. That's fairly impressive. I have a question for you as Associate Counsel to the President, steeped in ethics, as I think Senator DAmato stated. What do you think of the "de facto recusal" of Mr. Altman? Did he or anyone else in the White House commit what my mother would call a mortal sin in terms of ethics? Ms. NOLAN. No, I don't believe he or anyone else in the White House committed a mortal sin in terms of ethics and I hope in terms of nothing else as well. Senator DODD. Is that according to the new Baltimore Catechism? [Laughter.] Senator MURRAY. Ms. Nolan, you spoke with Mr. Foreman, the Treasury Ethics Officer. I asked him about this earlier, in terms of the issue of recusal. Can you tell us what the substance of that conversation was? Ms. NOLAN. Yes, I can. Mr. Foreman and I discussed the policies, the general standards that would apply to recusal of the Presidential appointee and he identified the issues he was going to look .at) and he informed me, as I said in my opening statement, that would be speaking with the ethics official at the RTC and with Office of Government Ethics. We discussed those standards .,,quite generally. Senator MURRAY. Did he give you any specifies regarding Mr. Altman's situation at that time? NOLAN. I don't think we talked in any detail about Mr. Altman's situation. We didn't identify the particular factors. I was particularly concerned in our first conversation about the possibil- 146 ity that the standards of conduct or some other law might be interpreted to require the recusal of a Presidential appointee from all matters that touch upon the President or the White House. There were other factors that might be considered, but those are the ones that were really left to the ethics officials of the agency. Senator MURRAY. Did he ask you to offer an opinion specifically on whether Mr. Altman should recuse himself Ms. NOLAN. No, he didn't. Senator MURRAY. Did you offer an opinion? Ms. NOLAN. No, I did not. Senator MURRAY. Maybe to sum up here-we're kind of losing perspective. We've been here for 4 days and we've been discussing this issue from absolutely every angle, and I'm beginning to think," that for 6 solid months, the White House discussed nothing but," recusals and contacts and Madison. Can somebody bring me back to perspective on that?
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