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Potato Industry, Spinach, Sugar
ON PREVIEW CASSETTE 216543 CS-16-014 (14-11 thru 14-23) Sacks of Potatoes being unloaded from boxcars (Southern Pacific Lines). Close-up (good, weird shot) of huge potatoes, hand holding one, sacks of potatoes being moved by hand truck. (over) Peeled potatoes on conv. belt,potatoes being cleaned, potatoes being gathered in field, potatoes in boxcars, close-ups of picked spinach, spinach field, machine that picks spinach, workers picking spinach, sugar beets riding up conv. belt, carrots in H2O. * Good shot of man (50's) chopping side of beef, man in lab weighing white powder, celery being packed into box, workers picking tomatoes, lettuce. Processing lettuce, cantaloupes being picked. Potatoes and cherries being processed and canned. Stock boy in grocery store( good shot) stacking apples. Green beans being picked, farmer in his bean field inspecting plants, hydroponic indoor garden (lab?), close-up of pickled green beans.
August 2, 1994 - Part 5
(16:30:26) That was what was in my mind as I heard that question. I was anxious to tell this Committee, as the videotape shows, that I informed the White House only about the generic procedures the RTC would employ in such circumstances and about nothing else relative to the Madison case. Indeed, I remember saying' "that was the whole conversation" and what I meant by that was that was the whole conversation with respect to what I believed was the substance of the case. No one asked me to describe everything that happened at the February 2 meeting . Had they, I would nI Id not and I still do not consider recusal to touch upon the see the Committee my answer. I asthat it was not my intent to mislead or to Indeed, I had with me on February 24 in my briefing book a series of question and answers on recusal which I Weis prepared to give in response to questions about recusal. And I had anticipated being asked directly about recusal, just as Ricki Tigert had been by the Committee a few weeks earlier, but I was asked no such questions. 1 have read news accounts of a battle over my recusal. The total discussions which I had on recusal with White House personnel consumed approximately 10 or 15 minutes. I said that I'd been advised to recuse -myself and I intended to take that advice. I didn't say when. No one asked me not to recuse myself. Mr. Steiner's diary points out that, after the February 2 meeting, everyone knew RTC investigation of Madison. Now, of course, I Members may feel that I was being too precise in sure the Committee with old information 415 that I wasn't going to play any role in this case. Yes, I did waver on timing, but I did execute the recusal 3 weeks later. In closing, I would like to reiterate the key facts. Three separate investigations have concluded that no legal or ethical violations occurred. Three separate investigations. No one interfered in any way with the Madison case nor improperly imparted information on it. I believe that my testimony of February 24 was truthful. I hope that these points and the answers I'll now provide to your questions will satisfy this Committee that my conduct was proper. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Altman. Let me just indicate that a vote has started on the Senate Floor. Mr. Altman's attorney has asked us to permit a viewing of the February 24 testimony before this Committee when these questions were asked to you and your responses, and I think it will be useful for us to see the actual videotape of those exchanges. I think we'll hold off on that until the second bells have started, until we've voted, and then we'll commence with the questioning. I want to say one other thing before starting the question period, and I want to say that in a personal vein, and I know Senator D'Amato may have a personal comment to make, too. We've known each other over a long period of years. We've worked together on other issues in the past. This is not a happy occasion for any of us, Going back to the meeting before this Committee when the questions were asked and the answers were provided, we were left with a very, I think, inadequate situation. So much so that the Special Counsel, Mr. Fiske, decided upon the basis of the responses that day to go ahead and commence an investigation himself which he did by subpoenaing a number of people and taking them before the Grand Jury. Now, we're coming along behind his review in that area in terms of trying to clear up the record for ourselves. So it has been kind of a long and winding road from that hearing, when you were before us, and we'll have the chance to look at the exchanges and then we can go into the questions at that time. We'll do so as soon as we come back. The Committee stands in recess for about 15 minutes. (16:34:52) [Recess.] (16:34:54) Commentary of hearings hosts DON BODE and NINA TOTENBERG, they also to talk to SARAH FRITZ of the Los Angeles Times and of STEVE ROBERTS U.S. News and World Report
McNamara Reports On Vietnam: New Moves Counter Red Infiltration
Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara tells a news conference that the United States intends to step up bombings until all key supply lines from the north are knocked out. Showing photos of some of the 24 bridges demolished so far, the Defense Secretary rules out the possibility of using nuclear weapons. Displaying a Red Chinese machine gun, Mr. McNamara says that regular north Vietnamese troops are now in the south. Secretary of Defense, Robert McNamara pointing to bombed out supply routes from North Vietnam. McNamara holding up a Chinese machine gun. CU - McNamara point to pictures of bombed out bridges. CU - The press taking down notes. Defense Secretary Robert McNamara, "I can't be too specific or accurate in estimating the size of that battalion I would guess its on the order of four or five hundred men. As to its significant I think it primarily significant in indicating that the North Vietnamese have used up or dried up the source of individual fillers who can be recruited, trained and sent back to fight in South Vienam. And that they are now having to call upon the regular units of their forces for that purpose. And this is understandable. I believe I'm correct in saying in the past 4 1/2 years the Vietcong, the Communists, have lost 89 thousand men, killed in South Vietnam. Not all of these men have been infiltrated from the North, but an important number have been. And with that plus the expansion of the Vietcong forces in the South, you can see the heavy drain upon the filler resources of the North and the reason why they are having to turn to their regular military units to continue the supply of men over these infiltration routes. A supply that is absolutely essential them if they are to offset continuing casualties."
Adlai Ewing Stevenson (1900-1965)
Ambassador Stevenson belonged with those men who became great figures without holding high office. Governor of the state of Illinois, Presidential hopeful, United States Ambassador to the United Nations. He leaves a void on today's international scene, which will be difficult to fill. Here are highlights of distinguished career as Governor of Illinois; as two-time Presidential candidate (1952 & 1956); as Ambassador to the U.N. It was in his last post Mr. Stevenson won wide fame and respect.
Historic Ceremony: The Right to Vote Signed into Law
In the same chamber where President Abraham Lincoln signed the first emancipation order more than a century ago, President Johnson signs the 1965 Voter Registration Act & promises the assembled witnesses to end forever discrimination at the polls. (National Voting Rights Act of 1965) Washington DC US Capitol Building, cars in parking lot in FG. President Lyndon Baines Johnson speaking to group in Capitol rotunda. Rear view statue in silhouette, light beaming through windows lining dome. CU frieze of Abraham Lincoln in rotunda. Statue of Abe Lincoln. Civil rights leader Roy Wilkins sitting beside unidentified African-American clergyman. President Lyndon Johnson standing at podium, looking solemn, stern. CU young African American woman. President LBJ speaking: "This law will ensure them the right to vote. The wrong is one which no American in his heart can justify. The right is one which no American true to our principles can deny." President Johnson receiving standing ovation. President Johnson exiting rotunda with Vice-President Hubert H. Humphrey and daughter Luci Johnson. MS fancy chandelier, tilt down to Lyndon Baines Johnson taking seat for signing of Voter Registration Act of 1965. President Johnson signing the bill into law. Unidentified Senator speaking with Dr. Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. Johnson shaking hands with Senators, handing out pens.
August 2, 1994 - Part 5
(16:55:21) The CHAIRMAN. Let me just stop you there. It may not be a major point, my general sense was that the "heads up" comment you made gave rise to the issue of contacts that bad been going on back and forth between the White House, and that caused Mr. Fiske to want to understand exactly who had spoken to whom about what, and he then cast the net out over all these people. I believe that was the predicate that got that concern going. Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, that's also my understanding. I was just reacting to the point of whether he launched his investigation for reasons of veracity of testimony. I think you are right the way you just put it. The CHAIRMAN. Why don't you go ahead. Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. I have no recollection of asking Ms. Hanson to go to the White House last fall. I did not task her to do that, using that odd word, to the best of my memory. Remember I was never myself briefed, Mr. Chairman, on the details of the criminal referral. I was never taken through it. I was never told how many referrals there were or the list or individuals named. I never had that full briefing. I believe Mr. Roelle testified, for instance, that when he first called me to talk about it, that I cut him off and said that I. didn't understand it, would be talk to Ms. Hanson, But in any event, I never had a full briefing on that, nor did I on any other case. The CHAIRMAN. Let me sharpen the question for you because we are under time limits, I will not cut you off in your responses, but I want to make sure you know exactly what it is that I'm after here so you can give a direct answer to it, And that is, she said that you did give her an instruction and tell her to go and do that. You said initially you bad no recollection of that, and I want to be clear in my mind whether you're saying categorically that you did not do that, you would not nave done that, or are you saying that you don't nave any recollection and there is a possibility, in fact, you might have done it, but just can't remember it. 417 Mr. ALTMAN. I'm saying that I have no recollection of doing it, but when I hear the term "task , " that I tasked her to do it, I don't think I would have done that, We also know, Mr. Chairman, that her meeting in September occurred in a brief aside, according to her testimony at the conclusion of another meeting, the Waco meeting, which was the reason she went in the first place. In other words, she didn't go over there solely for the purpose of talking about the matter she discussed. But the point I tried to stress, in my testimony, is that I think there is compelling evidence when I sat here before you on February 24 that I did not know of the fall meetings. And I think the facts that I cited, the numerous facts I cited, do a very strong job of corroborating that. The CHAIRMAN. Well, in hindsight now, you don't have a recollection of sending her over to do that as she recalls, you're not making categorical denial, as I just heard your words, but you can amplify that if you wish to. But looking back now and thinking about it, had you known about it ahead of time, would you have said don't do it? Was this something that should have happened? Mr. ALTMAN. Mr. Chairman, as you know, the Office of Government Ethics reviewed that matter and concluded, paraphrasing, that there was nothing inappropriate in those meetings. Now, I was questioned at great lenth and under oath by the representatives of the Office of Government Ethics , many hours and I'm sure that all the other witnesses were too, So I believe that its conclusion, the OGE's conclusion, should be taken very seriously, and I think it's most important to remember that there have been no ethical violations. The CHAIRMAN. No , I understand that. My question to you is, when you hear about that even after the fact, is that something you say to yourself, well, that shouldn't have happened. In other words, I'm trying to understand, going back to the contradiction, her recollection versus yours, if that bad come up back in that time frame, if that is something in your mind that would have caused you to react and say no, I wouldn't have had her do that because I would have thought that was an inappropriate thing to do. Mr. ALTMAN. my understanding is that she advised the White House in September for reasons of an impending press leak and I believe Mr. Roelle confirmed his understanding to be the same, and others who have testified or will testify will say that.
Ben Bella Deposed: Algerian Aide Ousts Boss In Coup
Overnight, there's a new strongman in Algeria. Colonel Houari Boumedienne, President Den Bella's right hand, turned against his friend and boss in a pre-dawn coup and assumed power. Meanwhile, delegates to a pending Afro-Asian conference in Algiers, were in confusion about their scheduled meeting. The delegate remarked that it was like preparing to go to the theatre and not knowing whether anyone had printed the tickets yet. Colonel Houari Boumedienne conferring with President Den Bella right hand in a pre-dawn coup. Algerian people lining the streets of Algeria applauding. Colonel Houari Boumedienne walking on the people lined street's. Adults and children applauding and smiling. Motorcade parade. Colonel Houari Boumedienne. High Angle Shot - Army tanks. High Angle Shot - Throngs in attendance of this governmental parade. Profile of Algeria's new Iron Man, Colonel Houari Boumedienne.
Britain Seeks Oil: Prospectors Drill Under North Sea
There are new boom towns springing up in Europe - right smack in the middle of the North Sea. With the discovery of natural gas off the coast of the Netherlands, a half a dozen companies are probing for oil. They work from drilling platforms manned around the clock. Science is taking a great deal of the guesswork out of oil prospecting, but still this North Sea venture is a multi-million dollar gamble that will be either a complete bust or a fantastic bonanza. Britain s oil rig right in the middle of the North Sea. MS - A shot of the oil rig from another angle. There was a discovery of natural gas off the coast off the Netherlands. CUS - Drilling platform. The big drill is spinning and there's a crew of men manning the operation of the drill. MS - A crew of four men being hoisted by a large net off the deck of a transport ship that brings them to the oil rig. The transport ship is bobbing to the left and to the right and up and down due to the roughness of the sea. Side view - Oil rig, Conoco, No 1. MS . Men walking around the deck of the oil rig. CUS - In the boiler room of the oil rig, huge engines that operate the drilling process of the rig, dials and meters, so the operators can take readings and taking samples of the water and mud for analysis. MS - Looking down from a higher elevation of the oil rig down to the bottom level. CUS - One of the machine room technicians. CUS - One of the Scientist or science technicians looking at soil samples. MS - Oil rig surrounded by a choppy sea.
Semi Palmated Sandpipers
TAPE 1 Semi palmated sandpipers in migration flying Semi palmated sandpipers in migration eating crab eggs Semi palmated sandpipers in migration eating horseshoe crab eggs S.p. Sandpipers in migration flying S.p. Sandpipers in migration - massed, resting and preening S.p. Sandpipers in migration feeding on crab eggs S.p. Sandpipers in migration flying, massed and preening S.p. Sandpipers in migration flying, massed and preening S.p. Sandpipers in migration eating horseshoe crab eggs S.p. Sandpipers in migration eating horseshoe crab eggs
Wading Bird - Great Blue Heron
07:58:57 Great blue heron flying to nest with a twig 07:59:21 Grt blue heron young practice fishing 08:00:20 Grt blue heron brings a twig to mate to build the nest 08:00:56 Grt blue heron young on a stump 08:02:08 Grt blue heron close up 08:02:43 Grt blue heron work on nest, scratch, itch and preen 08:05:01 Female grt blue heron regurgitates food for young 08:07:05 Grt blue heron regurgitates food for young, reswallows snake 08:12:00 Grt blue heron chicks are 1/3 grown 08:13:39 Grt blue heron and chick - almost grown - preening 08:14:16 Grt blue heron, egrets, anhingas in rookery 08:15:13 Grt blue heron with red bill(sexual rediness) preening in the sun ON PART TWO
August 2, 1994 - Part 5
(17:00:18) I see nothing wrong with it, Mr. Chairman, if that was the motivation. And had I been asked, had someone come to me and said there is an impending press leak, not knowing the information that I did not know about the referrals, I'm not sure what my reaction would have been. The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you one more question. My time is rapidly fading. You had asked early on, in assuming this temporary RTC job, that you be informed if there was a high profile case, that it be brought to your attention. Mr. ALTMAN. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN, That's not true? Mr. ALTMAN. That's not true. I only asked one thing in that respect, and, of course, like -many other aspects like this, it's been widely mischaracterized. I simply said, that before the RTC releases to the press a decision which could have major press impact 418 or leak potential, that I wanted to know what the decision was. I never asked to be kept abreast of any investigation during the course of the investigation. The CHAIRMAN. No, I understand. That's not what I said. The question was, if there was a high profile case, did you want to be informed that there, in fact, was a high profile case out there kick- ing around in some way. I mean, our record shows that you had indicated that you didn't want to be blindsided by those kinds of cases, that's my word. Mr. ALTMAN. I said I made these comments in the context of press policy that I didn't want to begin to receive inquiries on an RTC decision which had been released. The CHAIRMAN. Well, let me just finish this way, my time is up and we're going to have to go and vote here. Back in the fall of last year, do you have any memory at all of Ms. Hanson telling you anything about this criminal referral issue, whether or not there was a conversation about her going to the White House and telling Nussbaum, do you remember being informed by her at all about it? Mr. ALTMAN, Mr. Chairman, I testified on February 24, and I've done the same, of course, in all the depositions since then. That last fall, number one, was the first time I heard of the referrals, not in March. And second, that either Mr. Roelle or Ms. Hanson or both, I just can't recall anything better than that, advised me that a criminal referral was in the works, that it could cite the President and First Lady. I was given no information as to the prospects for a referral, would it be referred or not. I was not told a thing about that, simply that it was in the works, And I responded by saying, as I think the others have attested, that this ought to be handled in identical fashion to any other case, and then whoever it was said such decisions are typically made at the re- gional office level, and I said fine, then that's how it should be made in this case. The CHAIRMAN. Did you share that information with anybody at the White House at any time yourself?. Mr. ALTMAN. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. I'm going to suspend now so we can go and vote and when we return Senator D'Amato will be recognized. We'll stand in recess for 10 minutes. (17:03:31) [Recess.] (17:03:42) Commentary of hearings hosts DON BODE and NINA TOTENBERG from tv studio, they also talk with STEVE ROBERTS of U.S. News and World Report (17:13:52)(tape #10069 ends)
August 2, 1994 - Part 6
(00:09:08)(tape #10070 begins) Commentary of hearings hosts DON BODE and NINA TOTENBERG from tv studio, they also talk with STEVE ROBERTS of U.S. News and World Report (09:17:13) Hearing resumes: The CHAIRMAN. The Committee will come to order. Let me invite everyone to find a seat. We have a few Members coming back from the vote who have not yet arrived and in deference to every Member and to Mr. Altman as well, I'm going to let Senator D'Amato go ahead with his first round of questioning. Then if we're pretty much all reassembled, I'm going to take the time to show the videotape, and that way everyone will have the chance to see it. If that's acceptable, I'm going to call on Senator D'Amato now for his first round of questioning. Senator D'AMATO. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Altman, let's go back to the night of February 23, about 5:30 p.m. Do you recall having called me at my office? Mr. ALTMAN. I recall that we had a conversation that evening, Senator. 419 Senator D'AMATO. You called me ostensibly for the purpose of advising me that you were considering, the White House was consid- ering, a nominee to take over ashead of the RTC; is that correct? Mr ALTMAN That may have been why I called. I don't recall pre cisely, but that sounds right. Senator D'AMATO. Let me refresh your recollection. You called me specifically for that and you mentioned Mr. Larry Simon. Do you recall now? Mr. ALTMAN. I recall having a conversation with you about that, Senator DAMATO. Then you went on further to say, would I meet with Mr. Simon? You said, you did not want to put forth his nomination unless I felt comfortable with it, and I said have Larry call me. Do you recall that? Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. Senator D'AMATO. I went on to say to you, and I find it rather ironic because the very next day you used this language, I think You referred to "heads up." I said I want to give you a "heads up." Pre going to ask you tomorrow about the issue of recusal because I believe you're in an untenable position. Do you remember that? Mr ALTMAN. I remember you said you were going to ask me Senator DAMATO. Do you remember me telling you we're going to ask you if you had any contacts, you or the Treasury, with the White House as it relates to Madison/Whitewater? Do you recall that? Mr. ALTMAN. No, I don't recall that specifically. Senator D'AMATO. That is specifically the conversation. Thereafter, I believe you had occasion to speak to Mr. Ickes, is that true, about 5:30 p.m., a little after 5:30 p.m., didn't you have a telephone conversation with Mr. Ickes? Mr. ALTMAN. I spoke to Mr. Ickes that afternoon, I don't know if it was before or after your call. Senator D'AMATO. Did you speak to Mr. Ickes about the question of Whitewater and recusal? Mr. ALTMAN. I recall saying to Mr. Ickes that I intended to announce in my testimony on February 24, 1 would be stepping down as RTC Chairman on the scheduled expiration date of March 30. Senator D'AMATO. So you had a contact with Mr. Ickes as it related to the recusal and as it related Mr. ALTMAN. No, Senator. I don't recall any conversation between myself and Mr. Ickes on recusal. Senator DAMATO. Fine, Do you recall the 24th you came in and you testified before us? Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. Senator DAMATO. All right. Let me refer you to the same question that I advised you was going to be asked, you see, because we had prepared those questions and Senator Gramm wanted to raise that issue, and he did:
August 2, 1994 - Part 7
(18:36:14)(tape #10071 begins) there had not been something to trigger this flurry of faxes to Bernie Nussbaum about Whitewater. It showed that there Was a very real sensitivity and concern about Whitewater from Something that bad happened that day. Mr. ALTMAN. May I respond to that, Senator? Senator BOND. I didn't ask a question, but I'd be happy to have YOU make a brief comment. 439 440 Mr. ALTMAN. I don't see anything wrong with faxing a press article at any time to anyone Senator BOND. I didn't ask you that. Is it still your testimony that you don't recall having someone search for these articles about Whitewater, you don't remember anything about it, this wasn't your idea, somehow the fax machine just spit out the Whitewater article and sent it to Mr. ALTMAN. That's not my position, Senator. I may well have faxed this to Mr. Nussbaum. Senator BOND. Once in the evening and once in the morning. Mr. ALTMAN. I doubt I would have faxed it twice, but this is a press clip- ping, this is a press article. For the life of me, I can't un- derstand why someone would think faxing a press article to anybody at any time would be wrong. Senator BOND. Let me just go back to the point I was making, Mr. Roelle said he told you on March 23 about the criminal referrals. What you did that evening at 9:04 p.m., an unusual time to be faxing, and again at 8:58 a.m. the next morning, was to fax two different copies of the same article to Mr. Nussbaum reflecting Whitewater concerns of the President. The article dealt with President Clinton's problems. That is corroborating evidence that Mr. Roelle Mr. ALTMAN. No, sir, it isn't. Senator BOND. I didn't ask you for that judgment, Mr. Altman. I'm just saying that for those of us who are trying to determine whether Mr. Roelle is correct in saying he told you about it, these two activities are very consistent with you having been notified by Mr. Roelle. Now, yesterday, Mr Roelle testified that on or about September 23, he was notified of a second set of Madison criminal referrals which named the Clintons. Could you please tell us what Mr. Roelle told you? Mr. ALTMAN. I'd like to go back for a moment, Senator, and just address briefly the other question you raised. Senator BOND. I didn't ask a question. We're running out of time, Mr. Altman. Mr. ALTMAN. I'd just like an opportunity to respond to what you said. Mr. Nussbaum testified before the House under oath and I believe that Mr. Cutler's chronology also goes into this. Mr. Nussbaum, I'm quite sure, testified that he received no information on the criminal referrals from me in March, and I want to stress that. Now, as to this last question Senator BOND. Let me follow up. He did receive from you two faxes relating to the Clinton Whitewater deal. OK your answer to my question. Mr. ALTMAN. Well, I thought the question implied, that, if Mr. Roelle had said to me in March, information about the criminal referrals, and then, if I had sent the faxes, that somehow I would have imparted improper information which I did not Senator BOND. I did not say that Mr Altman. Would you go back to the question. Do you remember 'what Mr. Roelle told you on September 23? Mr. ALTMAN. As I testified here before this Committee on February 24, 1 thought I testified rather clearly, in the fall Mr. Roelle 441 or Ms. Hanson or both advised me that a criminal referral was working its way through the system. They did not tell me what the prospects for making the referral were, in other words, whether it would likely be made or not be made. Nothing was told to me on that. Senator BOND. But you did. I asked you if he told you and you said he did. I believe that was the short answer, Now, yesterday Ms. Hanson testified that you specifically told her to tell Mr. Nussbaum about these referrals. Can you tell us what you recall you told Ms. Hanson?
August 2, 1994 - Part 7
(18:40:36) Mr. ALTMAN. As I said a few moments ago, Senator, I don't recall that and I don't believe I would have asked her to do that. Senator BOND. Mr. Chairman, the time is up. We have it very clearly in the deposition and in the testimony of Ms. Hanson. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Bond. Senator Sasser, you wish to be recognized? Senator SASSER. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I do. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sasser. Senator SASSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Altman, it's clear that there is a discrepancy between your testimony and that of Ms. Hanson, and you testified that you did not request Ms. Hanson to initiate a September 1993 discussion with the White House regarding the referrals that were coming up from the Kansas City office. Did you request Ms. Hanson to have any other discussions with anyone else on the subject of the referrals that were coming from the Kansas City office of the RTC? Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, I don't recall suggesting Ms. Hanson advise anyone. Senator SASSER. Well, following up-but you say you don't recall asking her to advise anyone of the referrals coming up? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't believe that I did. Senator SASSER. Pardon? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't believe that I did. Senator SASSER. Did you ask her to consult or discuss with anyone these referrals that were coming up? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't recall doing so, Senator, no. Senator SASSER. Mr. Altman, let me follow up somewhat on the line of questioning that was initiated by Senator SARBANES. You indicated in response to Senator Sarbane's questions that you did not instruct or task Ms. Hanson to go to the White House and discuss the question of the referrals with Mr. Nussbaum or anyone else, but you did indicate that she might have inferred that she should have done so. Could she have inferred that she should have done so from something you might have said and if so, what could that have been? Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, I don't recall saying anything which could conceivably constitute a tasking, I don't recall that. I don't recall suggesting that Ms. Hanson brief the White House on this. I have a lot of respect for her. She's a professional. People can misunderstand each other. I think I referred to her deposition, the one I saw where she said "I can't recall" a couple of times, but I do not believe that I tasked her to do that. No. sir. Senator SASSER. Did Ms. Hanson make it a habit of going over to the White House, to your knowledge.) Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, as you know, she went to the White House that day, not in regard to Madison, but in connection with a meet- ing that was being held on the Waco report which had to do with the Davidians and the Waco, Texas tragedy. Senator SASSER. So the reason for her going to the White House on that particular day had nothing to do with Madison, to your knowledge? Mr. ALTMAN. My understanding is that was not the purpose of her visit, no. She was attending the White House in connection with a meeting on Waco and my understanding is that she and Mr' Nussbaum had an aside for a couple of minutes at the end of that meeting. Senator SASSER. Let me take you, Mr. Altman, to Mr. Steiner's diary. Now, Mr. Steiner's diary seems to suggest, and I quote it, you is gracefully ducked"- those are his words-"a question regarding telephone contacts with the White House' about Madison." In your prepared testimony, you deal with meetings and the recusal issue, but you don't touch on phone contacts. Now, what is your response to the notion that you intentionally left out telephone contacts? Mr. ALTMAN. Senator Sasser, I testified to the best of my ability on February 24, and I testified truthfully. The CHAIRMAN. Can you speak just a little bit louder,
August 2, 1994 - Part 7
(18:45:10) Mr. ALTMAN. I testified to the best of my ability on February 24, and I testified truthfully. I don't know what Mr. Steiner meant by that, but as you know, I amended the record to include four contacts, which I believe were incidental, which had nothing to do with the RTC investigation of Madison. And in -my response to Senator Domenici, I believe, I indicated that there may have been other contacts,, and I think the effect of my words was they were incidental, but the contacts that I subsequently described in amending the record had nothing to do with the RTC investigation of Madison. For example, the night before my testimony, I advised Mr. Ickes that I was going to announce that I was stepping down as RTC Chairman on March 30. That has nothing to do with the RTC investigation of Madison. I ran into Mr. Nussbaum in a corridor, and he advised me that the Administration would shortly have its nomination coming forward to this Committee for purposes of the permanent RTC Chairmanship. That has nothing to do with the RTC investigation of Madison. I supplemented the record in an effort to bend over backward to provide to Senator Riegle and the Committee information which I thought the Committee might want to have, but I testified to one substantive contact about the RTC investigation of Madison, and I believe that's true. senator SASSER. Now, let me ask you about another matter of some relevance here. You've been asked about many matters that, frankly, I don't think have much relevance, to be perfectly candid about it, but I want to ask you about a matter that perhaps does have some relevance. 443 In the February 2 meeting at the White House in Mack McLarty's office-I believe the meeting took place there--you telephoned - Mr. McLarty to set up the meeting, did you not? Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. Senator SASSER. But Mr. McLarty was not present there. The meeting was simply held in his office. Mr. ALTMAN. No, sir, be was not present. I believe the meeting was held in his office. Senator SASSER. And among the participants there was Mr. Nussbaum and also Harold Ickes. Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. Senator SASSER. Now, did you inform the participants at this February 2 meeting to the---or did you tell them with regard to Madison that it was "unlikely the investigation could be completed and a recommendation made by the General Counsel prior to the expiration of the statute of limitations," which would have occurred on February 28? Mr. ALTMAN. No, sir, I did not. I am sure that I did not. Senator SASSER. Well, did you say anything of that sort or anything similar to it? Mr. ALTMAN. I have here a copy of the talking points for the meeting, which Senator Riegle earlier provided to me, and it reads as follows: "It is not certain when the anal ysis will be completed, but it will be before February 28." 1 think that explicitly refutes this notion that we somehow provided them some improper information about inability to complete the investigation. It will be completed before February 28. Senator SASSER. Let me ask you this: The statute of limitations had been extended before on at least one occasion. Did you anticipate the statute of limitations would be extended once again beyond February 28? Mr. ALTMAN. I did not anticipate that on February 2, Senator, no. Senator SASSER. Mr. Steiner said-I think Mr. Steiner said he anticipated it would be extended once again, as the President ultimately did extend it, but you did not believe that to be the case on February 2. Mr. ALTMAN. No, sir, on February 2, 1 don't believe I was aware of the prospects for extending the statute. My recollection is that the Congress dealt with that very quickly. I only recall becoming aware of that a day or two before the Congress actually passed it. Senator SASSER. Why in the world, Mr. Altman, would. Harold Ickes make the statement that you allegedly said, and I quote, "it's "likely that the investigation could be completed and a recommendation made by the General Counsel prior to the expiration Of the statute of limitations"? Where could Harold Ickes have gotten that? Mr. ALTMAN. Senator Sasser, I did not say that and let me remind you of the evidence that supports. Senator SASSER. I am not accusing you of it. Mr. ALTMAN. I know. I want to remind you of the evidence that Supports that I did not say that. I just talked about the talking Points. The Office of Government Ethics Report, taking testimony under oath from every one of the participants, found that no 444 nonpublic information was disclosed in that meeting. Mr. Cutler's report and the highly detailed chronology, no such information was given on February 2. Ellen Kulka made perfectly clear that no matter what, she and the RTC would be ready to make a decision by February 28. As I said, you can ask Mr. Ickes yourself when he appears before you. I believe that he did not intend to say that I told the White House the investigation could not he concluded. And as you know,, Ms. Kulka testified yesterday that that was inaccurate.
Rich California Stakes To Native Diver
The $162,100 Hollywood Gold Cup is won by Californian-bred Native Diver who leads from wire to wire to score a six-length victory over six thoroughbreds. Guided by Jerry Lambert, a G.I. on leave to drive him, Native Diver upped his earnings to well over $500,000. California LS/TLSs crowd gathered at Hollywood Park racetrack. Panning TLS start of horse race, thoroughbred horses racing from gates. Panning high angle LSs horse race. Slightly slow motion panning TLS horse racing by cam.
Jump For Charity: U.S. & Thai Chutists Raise School Funds
The people of Thailand are flocking to a series of air shows being staged to raise money for schools. Teams of United States & Thai chutists are jumping at the chance to take part in the undertaking that has already raised funds to build 33 schools in rural areas. LS crowd gathered on airstrip. MS American flag hanging limp from flagpole. MS crowd of Thai men, women & children looking into sky. Great high angle air to air shots of parachutists leaping from plane, falling to ground. MS group of Thai men looking to sky. TLS parachutist landing on ground. CU young Thai woman. MS Thai female parachutist on ground after landing. Low angle LS parachutists leaping from plane, parachutes opening (apparently, this is two soccer teams making a grand entrance). LS/TLS - parachutists descending, landing. MS - uniformed Asian soccer players taking off parachutes, running off airfield.
August 2, 1994 - Part 7
(18:50:55) Senator SASSER. So all of the participants in that meeting, Bernie Nussbaum, yourself, Maggie Williams, who else was in there? Was Ms. Hanson in the meeting? Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. Senator SASSER. Ms. Hanson. Who else other than Mr. ALTMAN, Mr. Nussbaum's Deputy, Mr. Eggleston. Senator SASSER. And Harold Ickes. Harold Ickes is the only one of the whole group that suggests that you indicated it would be unlikely that the investigation could be completed and the civil suit brought before the expiration of the statute of limitations? Mr. ALTMAN. That is categorically false. Senator SASSER. No, no, I said he's the only who said that. Mr. ALTMAN. I'm sorry. Apparently, I've not seen a copy of his deposition. Senator SASSER Right Did Ms. Kulka indicate to you that she would not be able to file a case by February 28, 1994, to your knowledge? Mr. ALTMAN. No, sir. I believe Ms. Kulka, herself, testified the same way before this Committee. Senator SASSER. Affirmatively that she could file the case by February 28? Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. Senator SASSER. So if that's the case of the whole discussion about whether or not the statute of limitations was discussed, there really is not a -matter of great relevance, is it? It would appear to me that's the case. Mr. ALTMAN. We did not provide any nonpublic information. Senator SASSER. My time has expired. Thank you, Mr. Altman. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Sasser. Senator Faircloth. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Altman, you said in your deposition that you had no knowledge of the Madison Guaranty case. You said, and I quote, "I knew nothing about the case whatsoever, nothing about the facts, the merits, the outlook, or anything else about the case." You also said, and again I quote, "I was never given any information about the facts of the case, or the outlook for the case, or the status of the case." Now, that came from page 275 and 399 of your deposition. Is that what you said? Mr. ALTMAN, Yes, Senator, I believe I was specifically referring to the civil side. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Mr. Altman, yesterday Mr. Roelle of the RTC testified here under oath that he told you. in January 1993 about a criminal referral in the Madison Guaranty case that named the Clintons. In your deposition, you said you knew nothing about 445 the case whatsoever. Isn't information about the criminal referral something? Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, I believe my have to check the transcript- related to the civil case which was the only case remaining at the RTC in 1994 or the months preceding our February 2 meeting. Senator FAIRCLOTH. You mean that you knew about the criminal, but that doesn't amount to having any knowledge, just the civil. Mr. ALTMAN. My position is I knew almost nothing about the criminal as well, but I believe the answer you're quoting from had to do with what I knew about the case on February 2, which had to be the civil case. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Mr. Roelle said be told you about the criminal referral. All right. Yesterday, Ellen Kulka testified under oath that she had briefed you on the statute of limitations for civil action in the Madison Guaranty case. Now, she testified here yesterday that she bad briefed you on the civil action. Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, she briefed me on the generic procedures which the RTC follows on any statute of limitations situation and would follow on Madison. There's no knowledge there about the case. Senator FAIRCLOTH. In your deposition, you testified you were never given any information on the status of the case. Isn't being briefed on when the statute of limitations will run out on a particular case information on the status of the case? Mr. ALTMAN. No, sir, it's not. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Ellen Kulka testified here under oath that you were told that there would be difficulty in developing the Madison Guaranty civil case before the statute of limitations ran out. You said in our deposition that you knew nothing whatsoever about the outlook for the case. Isn't knowing that there would be difficulty in meeting the statute of limitations knowing something about the case?
Vietnam Report: War Fury Mounts, US Sends More Men
One of the bloodiest battles of the Vietnam War takes place in Dong Xiao as Red Vietcong rebels try to over-run South Vietnamese troops guarding an airstrip. In the night action south Vietnamese forces counted 250 dead, 19 Americans among them. At least 700 Reds were killed as Rangers drove them back into the jungle. Meanwhile, air strikes from carrier-based planes were joined by B-52 bombers which crossed the Pacific from Guam to hit a Vietcong concentrations. Dong Xiao, Vietnam Inside a Army helicopter looking over a pilots shoulder down at Dong Xiao, Vietnam. MS Army helicopter hovering over the landing strip. Aftermath of a battle and shelling, bombing. Confiscated weapons from the Red Vietcong. MS Bewildered Vietnamese after seeing many people slaughtered during the attack. Survivors leaving the ruins of their town. Piled up shell casings among the town's destruction. American military men talking with South Vietnam's military. MS Camera panning showing the destruction of the town. Aerial Shot - Naval aircraft carrier, helicopter lowering showing in detail the planes parked on the deck. Fighter plane taking off.
Welcome Home: Thailand Hails Its Miss Universe
The pert Miss Thailand who was recently crowned Miss Universe in Florida returns to her home in triumph. Huge crowds greet the beauty winner as she returns to her native land in time to help celebrate the Queen's birthday. TLS Thai reporters milling about tarmac, waiting for arrival. TLSs Miss Universe APASRA HONGSUKULA walking through crowd, surrounded by Thai military officers. MS Apasra Hongsukula wearing tiara & Miss Universe sash, sitting on convertible, flanked by Thai soldiers. TLS/MSs Apasra riding in open convertible through streets, waving to crowds; motorcade with police escort. Rear view TLS crowd congesting street, some men leaping for better look. Panning TLS crushing throng in street.
Lynx
(Tape 1) Adult lynx in deep snow, partially hidden by trees - snow is falling 07:53:38 CU Lynx's black tail tip, walk about, sniffing and pawing snow, then bounces away, walking around again 07:55:50 Lynx in deep snow 07:56:04 Adult and young lynx in deep snow, separate looking around in snow, young lynx semi-jumps and playful paws lynx, run about 07:56:54 MS of young lynx, he looks around and is joined by older lynx, walking 07:57:44 Young lynx pats down snow with front paw, looks around, hunches down and lunches into a run down snow bank after older lynx (action is cut off) 07:58:02 Two lynx walking around, young lynx walking in deep snow, running, shot from back of younger one running into trees, walking 07:59:23 Older lynx is joined by younger one, smelling snow and walking around, 07:59:45 Young lynx shakes feet 08:00:00 Young lynx shakes feet, falls in water, crawls out, doing a wobbly brisk walk 08:00:26 Wet lynx walking in deep snow, keep shaking his feet
August 2, 1994 - Part 7
(18:55:32) Mr. ALTMAN. No, sir, that doesn't give me any information about the outlook for the case. Senator FAIRCLOTH. You testified in your deposition that you had no knowledge of the substance of the Madison Guaranty case, However, Harold Ickes testified that you told him about the inquiry, that the investigation was going to take longer to conclude, and that it might not conclude until after the statute of limitations expired. Ickes testified, and I quote: '?be general information from Mr. Altman was based on what he knew." How could you advise Harold Ickes if you knew nothing? Mr. ALTMAN. I did not so advise him. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Was be lying? Mi. ALTMAN. I did not so advise him, Senator. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Are you saying that Harold Ickes was lying in his testimony? Mr. ALTMAN. I did not so advise him. Senator FAIRCLOTH. You said in your deposition that you were never involved with any case. Mr. ALTMAN. I said I was never involved in decisions on any case. 446 Senator FAIRCLOTH. Jean Hanson testified that you instructed her to try to get Ellen Kulka, the RTC lawyer, to brief President Clinton's private lawyer, Dave Kendall, on the Madison case. If you had never got involved, why would you be asking anybody to brief an ybody about anything on the case? Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, at the conclusion of the substantive part of the February 2 meeting, I was asked whether the same procedural information on the generic alternatives facing the RTC would be provided to the private attorneys. I'm not a lawyer. I think I said I guess so. We returned to the Treasury. Jean Hanson checked with Ms. Kulka. Ms. Kulka said something to the affected of not now or in due course. I said fine. That's what happened. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Again, you testified you were never involved in any case whatsoever. On Madison, specifically, you testified you knew nothing of the case whatsoever. In other words, nobody told ou anything about the case. Jean Hanson testified here that you ad an understanding about this type of information. She said it is standard practice to notify you if there will be issues involving Congressmen, Senators, people of national prominence, or an issue of national attention. How can you be notified if no one tells you anything? Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, my policy in that regard related to press. I simply requested that before the RTC released any action which could have major press potential or leak potential, that I be advised after the decision was reached, not before, not to have any role in the decision. I wanted to know simply so that I'd be prepared for whatever inquiries could ensue. And I think if one checked, although I haven't, if one checked with like agencies, one would find they had similar policies on press. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Mr. Altman, you did not recuse yourself until after Robert Fiske was brought in on the case by Janet Reno. At the March 2 White House meeting, Bernard Nussbaum wanted to know if there was any way to take the RTC civil case away from Ellen Kulka, who he thought was too tough, and give them to Robert Fiske. Jean Hanson testified that she didn't get an ethics opinion about telling Robert Nussbaum about the criminal referral because it assisted in achieving a governmental purpose. How does meeting with Nussbaum, who then tried to get the civil case out of the hands of a lawyer that he thought was too tough and into the hands of Robert Fiske serve a governmental purpose? Mr. ALTMAN. Senator FAIRCLOTH. I don't believe there was any discussion on February 2 about moving the case to Mr. Fiske. I don't believe there was any such discussion. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Mr. Altman, did you ever walk on water? Mr. ALTMAN. No, sir. Senator FAIRCLOTH. I yield my time to Senator D'Amato. Senator D'AMATO. Mr. Chairman., are you ready? Senator BENNETT. I'm ready, but I want my full 10 minutes. Senator D'AMATO. I'll start with Mr. Bennett and give him the time. Senator SHELBY. If the Senator would yield to me, I'd take it. Senator DAMATO. I'll yield to the Senator. Senator BENNETT. I think that's the proper order'. 447 Senator DAMATO. Go ahead. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Shelby, there is little time left but they're yielding, so you go ahead. Senator SHELBY. I'll try to save it for them. I just want my time, Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Altman, you've been prepared on various occasions during your career to testify before various Committees in the House an perhaps the Senate, have you not? Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir, many times. Senator SHELBY. And some of it started back when you were in the Carter Administration; is that Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. Senator SHELBY. Would you characterize an appearance before the Senate Banking Committee acting in its oversight capacity on RTC, etcetera, as a serious undertaking?
Nassau (Bahamas)
August 2, 1994 - Part 7
(19:00:58) Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir, I would. Senator SHELBY. Did you not prepare for this oversight hearing Senator SHELBY. How much time did you spend in your best judgment, if you recall anything, on preparation for that February hearing? Mr. ALTMAN. Ten or 12 hours. Senator SHELBY. Now, did you think you were fairly well prepared when you came before the Banking Committee? Mr. ALTMAN. One is never as prepared as one would like to be but reasonably so. Senator SHELBY. Mr. Altman, you're a graduate of Georgetown University undergraduate and MBA from the University of Chicago is that right? Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. Senator SHELBY. Two good schools. You're an investment banker by profession, or were? Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. Senator SHE SHELBY. You were a partner with one or two of the large investment houses that deal with investment banking in the United States Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. in February? Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir, I did. Senator SHELBY. Who worked with you? I know a number of your staff, but besides Ms. Hanson. Mr. ALTMAN. Who attended? Senator SHELBY. Yes, who helped prepare you? We have staff who help prepare us sometimes and I understand that. Mr. ALTMAN. There were about 10 or 15 members in RTC Treasury staff who worked with me on the preparation of the testimony on the Q's and A's before February 24. Senator SHELBY. Do you, in this preparation, go over with different staffers questions that might be-that you might anticipate that some of us here on the Banking Committee might ask you Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. Senator SHELBY. -Pertaining to RTC or something related directly or indirectly to it? Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. 448 Senator SHELBY. -and in the world. Do you believe that when someone asks you a straight question, that you should give them a straight answer? Or should you try to dodge it or duck it? Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, throughout the career that I've been privileged to have, both public and private, I have always tried to an. swer forthrightly. I think if you went out and checked with people who know me, they might say various things about me and my failings but they would not say that I was not a forthright person. Senator SHELBY. We've been checking and this is part of the hearing today. A lot of us are concerned about some of your answers to some questions. Were you trying to avoid the question? Were you hoping that the precise question was not asked, was not asked where you could not squeeze out of it in some way, or duck it in some way, or evade it in some way? Mr. ALTMAN. No, Senator, I wasn't. Senator SHELBY. Was that part of your preparation for the hearin g? Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, I prepared for those hearings the way I've always tried to prepare which was to put myself in a position to know as much as I can about the subject and answer the questions as forthrightly as I can. Senator SHELBY. Do you know Mr. Josh Steiner? Mr. ALTMAN. Sure. Senator SHELBY. Do you work with him? Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. Senator SHELBY. Do you work closely with him? Mr. ALTMAN. Less so these days because he's Chief of Staff, but he was my special assistant through last fall, and we worked very closely. Senator SHELBY. Worked with him every day, did you not, for a while? Mr. ALTMAN. At that period, yes, not now. Senator SHELBY. You're familiar with his diaries and I'm sure you've read them, have you not? Mr. ALTMAN. I've never been given a full copy of the diary, no. I've just have the page The CHAIRMAN. That's all we have, too. Senator SHELBY. Talking about recusal, which you don't think is important, but a lot of us do think that it is important and the method Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, I didn't say it was important. Senator SHELBY. What did you say about it? Mr. ALTMAN. I said it bad nothing to do with the RTC investigation of Madison Guaranty. Senator SHELBY. You said it didn't matter? Mr. ALTMAN. I said it had nothing to do with the RTC investigation of Madison Guaranty. Senator SHELBY. Not whether it didn't matter, it was immaterial to the investigation? Mr. ALTMAN. It would have had no bearing under any circumstances on the RTC investigation of Madison. Senator SHELBY. I want to read you something from the record and it may have already been touched on, but from Josh Steiner's diary and this has to To with your -meeting at the White House. 449 "At a fateful White House meeting with Nussbaum, Ickes, and Williams, however, the White House staff told Roger Altman that it was unacceptable"-that is your recusal. "Roger Altman had gone to brief them on the impending statute of limitations deadline and also to tell them of his recusal decision. They reacted"-they reacted "very negatively to the recusal and Roger Altman backed down the next ay and agreed to a de