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August 1, 1994 - Part 2
(13:31:05) Ms. KuLKA. With respect to the criminal referrals, they were made before we came. They're in the hands of the Special Prosecutor and we have no relationship to them. Our understanding is that they're in the posture they would normally be in if the Justice were considering them. With respect to cur own investigation, I think we're on an accelerated path far greater than we might be in other circumstances. We are devoting a significant amount of resources and attention to this matter. Senator SARBANES. If anything, you have intensified the pace toward bringing action-in other words, speeded it up. You have not, as a consequence of all that's transpired, there would not have been an impediment or a negative impacting upon the case? Ms. KuLKA. That's correct. The CHAMMAN. You nodded in the affirmative, too, Mr. Ryan. Mr. RYAN, Yes, that's correct. Senator SARBANES. Of course, that doesn't answer the question that we will examine with other witnesses about their behavior, be- it " might have had different results. It's very important, I cause it think, to make the point here that, as far as impacting upon these cases, there has not been a negative impact upon them as you un- derstand it. Is that correct, Mr. Ryan? Mr. RYAN. That's correct. Senator SARBANES. Mr. Roelle, would ordinarily be told-not you or in ordinarily. What number of cases would you, have been told about a criminal referral? You say you got, I think the night before, a phone call telling you about this one. Has it happened in the past? Mr. ROELLE. It had happened the previous September on the first criminal referral regarding Madison. 57 Senator SARBANES. That came out in the questioning that Senator Kerry engaged you in. Is that correct? Mr. ROELLE. Yes, and it did not happen other than when I was aware of the criminal referrals regarding Lincoln Savings Bank, but that was in early 1990. Senator SARBANES. Upon receiving this information, you felt you should take it to Mr. Altman. Is that correct? Mr. ROELLE. Yes, sir. Senator' SARBANES. Why was that? Mr. ROELLE. Because he was the CEO. Senator SARBANES. When you got the earlier information, had you taken it to Mr. Casey? Mr. ROELLE. Yes, sir. Senator SARBANES. In the earlier case, somehow or another, that information reached the White House because the Counsel to President Bush, Boyden Gray, sought additional information. Is that correct? Mr. ROELLE. That s my understanding, yes, sir. Senator SARBANES. Do you know bow it reached him? Mr. RoELLE. No, sir. g(13:34:04)(End of tape #10057)
August 1, 1994 - Part 3
(14:05:36) Senator BOND. Could you give us, for the record, the names of the individuals involved in the meetings? Mr. ROELLE. It was in one of our normal meetings. Senator BOND. Which would include Mr. ROELLE. Let's see. Whoever-probably Rick Aboussie, who was our Acting General Counsel at the time, Lainar Kelly, who was the Senior Vice President, myself, who is a Senior Vice President, and maybe two or three other staff people from the RTC. I just don't recall who it may have been. Senator BOND aNY HIGHER LEVEL? 68 Mr. ROELLE. Ms. Johnnie Booker, who was our EEO and Minor-ity Officer. It would have included some Treasury people. I don't know-I can only tell you who attended those meetings. I just don't recall who was there at the meetings, but it could have been Mr. Newman, Mr. Steiner, Ms. Hanson, or Mr. Altman. Some Treasury staffers usually accompanied these people. At any one of our meetings it would not be unusual to have anywhere from five to seven , eight Treasury people and maybe five to seven or eight RTC peo ple. You could have 16 people at a meeting. Senator BOND. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I see my time is UP. The CHAiRmAN. Thank you, Senator Bond. Let me indicate that roll call is now taking place on the Senate floor Senator MACK. Mr. Chairman, I only have one question. We should be able to get it finished. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Mack, let me just take a minute. We've got about 6 minutes to get to the floor from right now. Senator MACK. This is directed to Mr. Katsanos. I understand you had a number of conversations with Jack DeVore, former Spokesman for Secretary Bentsen, about the Madison referrals in the fall of 1993. Drawing your attention to the second and third conversations you had with him, I understand that you knew of the October 14, 1993, meeting with Ms. Hanson and several White House officials. What was your, understanding of why this meeting, was taking place? Mr. KATSANOS. My knowledge of the meeting is really not very extensive. Jack DeVore had called me tip, He was preparing to exit the Treasury Department. I had spoken with him earlier in the month to alert him to the fact that some reporters were calling us concerning Madison Guaranty, the Rose Law Firm, and a number of issues relating to them, I bad told him the staff was having some disagreements on potential criminal referrals, and I thought this story could appear. He called me and told me he was getting ready to go over to the White House for a meeting and all he wanted to know was whether the referrals bad been sent and I acknowledged they bad been. Senator MACK, Did you get any sense about whether this was a press meeting or Mr. KATSANOS. It was my impression that he was going to meet with Mr. Gearan at the White House. I believe be's the Communications Director, and that was the only person he had mentioned would be at the meeting. Senator MACK. Didn't you think you should have been at that meeting? Mr. KATSANos. The White House is not my territory, sir. The CHAIRMAN, Thank you, Senator Mack, We're going to take a brief recess. I want to finish this panel so you can be done for the day. We can take a break after that, and bring Ms. Hanson on. I'm going to recess us now and we'll reconvene no later than 2:30 p.m. to try to finish up. So, if you can be ready to go at 2:30 p.m., we'll resume at that time. The Committee stands in recess. (14:09:27) [Recess.] (14:09:30) Commentary of NINA TOTENBERG and DON BODE from tv studio, they also interview former Inspector General SHARMON FUNK (?) and Senator RICHARD SHELBY