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August 1, 1994 - Part 2
(13:31:05) Ms. KuLKA. With respect to the criminal referrals, they were made before we came. They're in the hands of the Special Prosecutor and we have no relationship to them. Our understanding is that they're in the posture they would normally be in if the Justice were considering them. With respect to cur own investigation, I think we're on an accelerated path far greater than we might be in other circumstances. We are devoting a significant amount of resources and attention to this matter. Senator SARBANES. If anything, you have intensified the pace toward bringing action-in other words, speeded it up. You have not, as a consequence of all that's transpired, there would not have been an impediment or a negative impacting upon the case? Ms. KuLKA. That's correct. The CHAMMAN. You nodded in the affirmative, too, Mr. Ryan. Mr. RYAN, Yes, that's correct. Senator SARBANES. Of course, that doesn't answer the question that we will examine with other witnesses about their behavior, be- it " might have had different results. It's very important, I cause it think, to make the point here that, as far as impacting upon these cases, there has not been a negative impact upon them as you un- derstand it. Is that correct, Mr. Ryan? Mr. RYAN. That's correct. Senator SARBANES. Mr. Roelle, would ordinarily be told-not you or in ordinarily. What number of cases would you, have been told about a criminal referral? You say you got, I think the night before, a phone call telling you about this one. Has it happened in the past? Mr. ROELLE. It had happened the previous September on the first criminal referral regarding Madison. 57 Senator SARBANES. That came out in the questioning that Senator Kerry engaged you in. Is that correct? Mr. ROELLE. Yes, and it did not happen other than when I was aware of the criminal referrals regarding Lincoln Savings Bank, but that was in early 1990. Senator SARBANES. Upon receiving this information, you felt you should take it to Mr. Altman. Is that correct? Mr. ROELLE. Yes, sir. Senator' SARBANES. Why was that? Mr. ROELLE. Because he was the CEO. Senator SARBANES. When you got the earlier information, had you taken it to Mr. Casey? Mr. ROELLE. Yes, sir. Senator SARBANES. In the earlier case, somehow or another, that information reached the White House because the Counsel to President Bush, Boyden Gray, sought additional information. Is that correct? Mr. ROELLE. That s my understanding, yes, sir. Senator SARBANES. Do you know bow it reached him? Mr. RoELLE. No, sir. g(13:34:04)(End of tape #10057)
August 1, 1994 - Part 3
(14:05:36) Senator BOND. Could you give us, for the record, the names of the individuals involved in the meetings? Mr. ROELLE. It was in one of our normal meetings. Senator BOND. Which would include Mr. ROELLE. Let's see. Whoever-probably Rick Aboussie, who was our Acting General Counsel at the time, Lainar Kelly, who was the Senior Vice President, myself, who is a Senior Vice President, and maybe two or three other staff people from the RTC. I just don't recall who it may have been. Senator BOND aNY HIGHER LEVEL? 68 Mr. ROELLE. Ms. Johnnie Booker, who was our EEO and Minor-ity Officer. It would have included some Treasury people. I don't know-I can only tell you who attended those meetings. I just don't recall who was there at the meetings, but it could have been Mr. Newman, Mr. Steiner, Ms. Hanson, or Mr. Altman. Some Treasury staffers usually accompanied these people. At any one of our meetings it would not be unusual to have anywhere from five to seven , eight Treasury people and maybe five to seven or eight RTC peo ple. You could have 16 people at a meeting. Senator BOND. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I see my time is UP. The CHAiRmAN. Thank you, Senator Bond. Let me indicate that roll call is now taking place on the Senate floor Senator MACK. Mr. Chairman, I only have one question. We should be able to get it finished. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Mack, let me just take a minute. We've got about 6 minutes to get to the floor from right now. Senator MACK. This is directed to Mr. Katsanos. I understand you had a number of conversations with Jack DeVore, former Spokesman for Secretary Bentsen, about the Madison referrals in the fall of 1993. Drawing your attention to the second and third conversations you had with him, I understand that you knew of the October 14, 1993, meeting with Ms. Hanson and several White House officials. What was your, understanding of why this meeting, was taking place? Mr. KATSANOS. My knowledge of the meeting is really not very extensive. Jack DeVore had called me tip, He was preparing to exit the Treasury Department. I had spoken with him earlier in the month to alert him to the fact that some reporters were calling us concerning Madison Guaranty, the Rose Law Firm, and a number of issues relating to them, I bad told him the staff was having some disagreements on potential criminal referrals, and I thought this story could appear. He called me and told me he was getting ready to go over to the White House for a meeting and all he wanted to know was whether the referrals bad been sent and I acknowledged they bad been. Senator MACK, Did you get any sense about whether this was a press meeting or Mr. KATSANOS. It was my impression that he was going to meet with Mr. Gearan at the White House. I believe be's the Communications Director, and that was the only person he had mentioned would be at the meeting. Senator MACK. Didn't you think you should have been at that meeting? Mr. KATSANos. The White House is not my territory, sir. The CHAIRMAN, Thank you, Senator Mack, We're going to take a brief recess. I want to finish this panel so you can be done for the day. We can take a break after that, and bring Ms. Hanson on. I'm going to recess us now and we'll reconvene no later than 2:30 p.m. to try to finish up. So, if you can be ready to go at 2:30 p.m., we'll resume at that time. The Committee stands in recess. (14:09:27) [Recess.] (14:09:30) Commentary of NINA TOTENBERG and DON BODE from tv studio, they also interview former Inspector General SHARMON FUNK (?) and Senator RICHARD SHELBY
August 1, 1994 - Part 3
(13:30:04)(Tape #10058 begins) Senator Sarbanes. I guess I want to ask Mr. Ryan and Ms. Kulka this question, Of course, we're looking very carefully into these discussions and contacts that took place, and we'll be examining other witnesses that will come before us this week with respect to those matters. I'm interested to know from you, though, as the Acting Director of the RTC and the General Counsel, if any of the referrals involving Madison are in a different posture today than they would have been bad none of these discussions taken place or-I mean, you had these discussions going on, but had these cases moved, in effect, on a straight track and today they're more or less where they would have been in any case? (13:31:05) Ms. KuLKA. With respect to the criminal referrals, they were made before we came. They're in the hands of the Special Prosecutor and we have no relationship to them. Our understanding is that they're in the posture they would normally be in if the Justice were considering them. With respect to cur own investigation, I think we're on an accelerated path far greater than we might be in other circumstances. We are devoting a significant amount of resources and attention to this matter. Senator SARBANES. If anything, you have intensified the pace toward bringing action-in other words, speeded it up. You have not, as a consequence of all that's transpired, there would not have been an impediment or a negative impacting upon the case? Ms. KuLKA. That's correct. The CHAMMAN. You nodded in the affirmative, too, Mr. Ryan. Mr. RYAN, Yes, that's correct. Senator SARBANES. Of course, that doesn't answer the question that we will examine with other witnesses about their behavior, be- it " might have had different results. It's very important, I cause it think, to make the point here that, as far as impacting upon these cases, there has not been a negative impact upon them as you un- derstand it. Is that correct, Mr. Ryan? Mr. RYAN. That's correct. Senator SARBANES. Mr. Roelle, would ordinarily be told-not you or in ordinarily. What number of cases would you, have been told about a criminal referral? You say you got, I think the night before, a phone call telling you about this one. Has it happened in the past? Mr. ROELLE. It bad happened the previous September on the first criminal referral regarding Madison. 57 Senator SARBANES. That came out in the questioning that Senator Kerry engaged you in. Is that correct? Mr. ROELLE. Yes, and it did not happen other than when I was aware of the criminal referrals regarding Lincoln Savings Bank, but that was in early 1990. Senator SARBANES. Upon receiving this information, you felt you should take it to Mr. Altman. Is that correct? Mr. ROELLE. Yes, sir. Senator' SARBANES. Why was that? Mr. ROELLE. Because he was the CEO. Senator SARBANES. When you got the earlier information, had you taken it to Mr. Casey? Mr. ROELLE. Yes, sir. Senator SARBANES. In the earlier case, somehow or another, that information reached the White House because the Counsel to President Bush, Boyden Gray, sought additional information. Is that correct? Mr. ROELLE. That s my understanding, yes, sir. Senator SARBANES. Do you know bow it reached him? Mr. RoELLE. No, sir. (13:34:04)(End of tape #10057) Senator SARBANES, I have no further questions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRmAN. Every Senator here that's sought a first round has bad one. Now I'm going to start a second round and we'll see how many people want to question this panel. Ms. Kulka, it's my understanding that you thought Roger Altman should recuse himself from the RTC's investigation in this area. Is that correct? Ms. KULKA. I thought that, for political reasons, sir, he should recuse himself, not for ethical or legal reasons. The CHAIRMAN. Did you communicate that to him? Ms, KULKA. I probably did. The CHAIRMAN. You probably did? Ms. KULKA. I really had several discussions on this with Mr. Ryan, Ms. Hanson, Mr. Altman, and I don't remember if I directly said-i probably asked it instead of said it. I probably would have put it in the context of why are you subjecting yourself and the RTC to the kinds of pressures that are occurring with this, and what is the positive aspect as you weigh the situation? The CHAIRMAN. Weighing all that, your view was that it made more sense for him to recuse himself. Was that your view. Ms. KULKA. From that perspective, yes. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ryan, do you remember Ms. Kulka indicating that, reflecting that in all these meetings she's just described? Mr. RYAN. I think Mr. Altman was well aware of her view. Whether there was ever precisely those words used or not, it's not clear. The CHAIRMAN. Did you have a view? Mr. RYAN. I had the same view.
Moscow Missile Night
Moscow seizes the opportunity on the 20th anniversary of the downfall of Hitler to display her military strength. Not in years has Russia mounted such a calculated propaganda display - and on the same day shot a rocket to the moon for a "soft" landing. A military parade, Russian Field Marshal Zhukovoff and Brezhnev. Russian citizens applauding. MS - Trucks hauling missiles. Huge semi trucks hauling extremely large missiles. Army tanks with missiles mounted to the tops of the tanks.
A New Star Shines Bright
Claudia Cardinale is making her first film in the United States, "Blindfold", starring Rock Hudson. A press reception introduces this Italian beauty who has won acclaim as the happiest invention since spaghetti. Milton Rackmil, Universal Pictures President, adds a bouquet to the many Miss Cardinale has received New York skyline. CU - Claudia Cardinale smiling. MS - Claudia Cardinale and Rock Hudson standing together and smiling. MS - Rock Hudson, Claudia Cardinale and Milton Rackmil, Universal Picture's - President, handing Claudia Cardinale a bouquet of roses.
"Chutes" N Records Both Fall
The U.S. Army Parachute Team - the Golden Knights - show the precision jumping that has brought the nation a new set of International records. They hit the bull's-eye so often that they set 69 new world's records. Giving the United States 93 out of a possible 128 global marks. US Army single wing, single engine plane. Aerial - the X where the parachute team will land after they exit the plane. First man jumps out of the plane and his chute opens. Two members of the Golden Knights jump out of the plane and land right on the X. Aerial - Looking down at the top of the single engine army plane. Jumpers exit the plane and one lands on the X with both feet on the ground.
Kennedy Memorial: Britain Dedicates Tone At Runnynede
There is a little corner of England that will always be American. At Runnymede, Queen Elizabeth escorts Mrs. John F. Kennedy and her children to ceremonies dedicating a Memorial to the assassinated President. The monument is a seven-ton block of Portland stone resting in a three-acre meadow that has been deeded to the United States. It was here at Runnymede in 1215 that the barons of England forced King John to sign the Magna Carta - a document that is the basis of all freedom we enjoy today. What better place for a memorial to a man who belonged to all free men and will be ever mourned by them. A little corner of England's country side. MS - Jacqueline Kennedy and her two young children, Caroline and John Jr. Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip are walking with the Kennedy family. MS - A large block of stone with an honor guard standing at each end of the block. CU - An American Sailor and a British Sailor. MS - Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip are walking with Jacqueline and her children down a walk way approaching the monument. CU - The words inscribed on the Portland Stone. MS - Profiles of the Queen, Prince and Kennedy family. CU - Jacqueline and her children. MS - Jacqueline shaking hands with Prime Minister Wilson, Dean Rusk and the former Prime Minister of England, Harold McMillen. MS - The audience of people in attendance. Queen Elizabeth II, "This acre of English soil in now bequeath in perpetuity to the American people. In memory of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy who in death my people still mourn and whom in life they loved and admired." (Applause) MS - The Queen, Prince and the Kennedy's leaving the site of the Kennedy Memorial. CU - Jacqueline Kennedy and Prince Phillip. CU - American Sailor MS - Jacqueline Kennedy and Prince Phillip stop briefly to look at the Memorial.
Pakistani Deaths In Thousands
One of the worst disasters in history hits East Pakistan. A cyclone and wind-fed tidal waves battered the countryside with unbelievable devastation. 12,000 known dead - with fears the toll will reach 30,000. Pakistan Aftermath in Pakistan resulting from the deadly winds and tidal waves, MS - Homes smashed to smithereens people digging through the rubble. LS - Debris in the harbor of smashed boats. LS - Power lines downed and a few people walking down the street. MS - Metal power bent in half. MS - Trees up-rooted. MS - Two men hands awing a tree limb. MS - Children picking up whatever is salvageable from a flooded street. MS - Twisted trees intermingled with smashed up houses and boats.
Avalanche Traps German Skiers
Laughter and gaiety was suddenly stilled at a German resort by an awesome avalanche. Rescue teams search day and night at Garmisch-Partenkirchen for those missing. 25 skiers were rescued but ten persons perished. Germany A couple of trucks engulfed by an avalanche. MS - Small group who survived the avalanche. MS - Soldiers, digging looking for survivors. CU - German or Austrian soldier. MS - US rescue helicopter and soldiers waist high in snow. MS - Soldiers with German Sheppard s looking for survivors. CU - Un-reconizable twisted metal. Aerial shot - A line of rescue workers that look like a line of ants.
August 1, 1994 - Part 3
(13:35:43) The CHAiRMAN, Did you communicate it to Mr. Altman? Mr. RYAN. I think it was communicated to Mr. Altman. I'm not that I ever specifically said I think you ought to recuse Yourself, but I can recall that in the meetings where we were going 58 over questions and answers for the Committee bearing on oversight it was clear Mr. Altman was aware of our views. Ms. KULKA. Mr. Riegle, may I expand on my answer as I sit here thinking about it? The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Ms. KuLKA. I think I made those remarks and held those feelings in the context of Mr. Altman repeatedly saying to Mr.- Ryan and myself, I expect to follow your recommendation, whatever it is in this case. I cannot conceive of not following your recommendation, except if you don't make a recommendation, and I can't imagine that you won't make a recommendation, and in that context, I think, were my thoughts and questions. The CHAiRmAN. The other side of this, as we've gathered these facts, is there's information-some you may have gathered and some to be presented-that there was some pressure on Mr. Altman to not recuse himself coming from people in the White I-louse who expressed a view upon it. It seemed to me-in fact, in your deposition, you were asked the question did Ms. Hanson, who we're going to hear from later today, ever indicate to you or give you the impression by anything she said that there was any pressure being put on Mr. Altman by the White House not to recuse himself.? Why don't you tell us what your view was on that. Ms. KuLKA, I don't think I responded that I thought there was pressure, but at one point in one of our conversations, I walked down the ball with her, and I said, "I just can't believe that he's willing to put himself in this position to take all this political heat when it's clear be's not going to make the actual decision. Why would he ever do it?" And she said to me, Think about it." I a have said to her-I don't know if I said it back to her or I internal ized the thought, that it may have been because the White House did not want him to, but that was it. I don't recall if she responded to me at all. I never had a direct confirmation that there was any White House involvement. The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever understand that there was a point at which Mr. Altman bad reached the point of deciding that he would, in fact, recuse himself? Ms. KULKA. No. The CHAIRMAN. Were you in the Committee room the day-on February 27, 1994-on February 24, 1994, when we had the hearing? You were there, were you not? Ms. KULKA. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN, As you know, there was a series of questions put to Mr. Altman, to which he responded. It's a matter of concern to many people, whether the answers were as clear and complete as they should have been. Were you listening to that exchange at the time? Ms. KuLKA. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN, Did you have any information, based on your experience and your involvements, that would have caused you to feel that the answer was less than complete at the time? Ms. KULKA. No, sir. The CHAiRmAN. Did you think about it that way at the time? Ms. KuLKA. I was listening to all of these answers. There were a number of Q's and A's that were prepared and Mr. Altman said 59 when we were preparing them, "I can't read from things. I'll have to be familiar enough on a huge variety of subjects that might have dealt with the operation of the RTC as well as this. I'll just have to be able to remember enough of that or enough of any one that's appropriate to respond." In that context, there were many things in which we had prepared longer Q's and As where be did not cover the whole ground, I had no more feeling about this, that the answer he had prepared to the question, if it were to come, about White House meetings did go beyond this, specifically to refer to the fact that he had mentioned considering his recusal to the White House, didn't trigger anything in my mind at the time. The CHAIRMAN, How long did you spend ahead of time in the preparation for those answers, those Q's and A's, those prep sessions before the testimony of Mr. Altman? Ms. KULKA. We spent the 6 or 7 days before, on and off, working on it and we had at least two long sessions with Mr. Altman. The CHAIRMAN. How long would those sessions have lasted with Mr. Altman? Ms. KULKA. I would say 2 or 3 hours at a time. The CHAIRMAN. You probably spent 5 or 6 hours with him alone in addition to the other time the staff bad spent working everything up on this. Is that correct?
Ticker-Tape Town: Gotham Welcomes King Hassan
Gotham Welcomes King Hassan. After an official reception in Washington, King Hassan of Morocco gets the traditional one in New York -- a parade up lower Broadway to City Hall. The 33 year-old Monarch breaks with precedent and walks part of the way. State visit ticker tape parade and King Hassan is standing up in a convertible waving to the people, CUS - Crowds standing on the sidewalk's in back of horse barricades. MCUS - King Hassan walking down the street enjoying the ticker tape and crowds. MS - People behind the crowd control horses are waving flags from Morocco and American flags. MS - An officer from every branch of the military service stand at attention saluting King Hassan.