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First Theatre Merritt House
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[00.59.25-BAKER interrogates DEAN about DEAN'S March 21, 1973 meeting with NIXON, BAKER trying to get an assessment of how NIXON reacted to the facts DEAN told him-at issue is whether this was NIXON'S first information on the WATERGATE COVERUP] Now, at any one of those points, which -were the principal points that were in my mind at that point there may have been varying degrees of elaboration on, but I cannot give the degree of elaboration at this point, but I can recall clearly the principal points I raised with him. Senator BAKER. The record should show -that you are testifying to, at my request, a general outline of the conversation and this is not meant to omit other detail or statements that have been included in your previous testimony. [01.00.03-BAKER wants to know about NIXON'S reaction to DEAN'S "CANCER ON THE PRESIDENCY" speech] I would like to reach the, point when you are, ready when you can tell us in whatever detail you can -what, the President said to You Or what questions he asked. You indicated, I believe., that toward the end, the President did ask some questions Mr. DEAN. Yes; he did. Senator BAKER. You do not have a perfect memory of that, but would you--- Mr. DEAN. The questions -were running along a tenor--there were not many--that indicated that the President still did not realize the implications of this matter, and the one that really stuck my mind is when he suggested to me that maybe some sort of presentation or briefing ought to be provided to the Cabinet. And I believe he also suggested that this be explained to the leadership, Senator BAKER. You mean to the congressional leadership? Mr. DEAN. Congressional leadership. [01.00.54] Senator BAKER. I understand that, there is a meeting With the congressional leadership, usually on Tuesday morning. Is this what the president apparently indicated? Mr. DEAN. I do not know what particular day he, -was referring to and I cannot, recall which day of the week the 21st was. I have not checked my calendar on that. Senator BAKER. Go ahead, Mr. Dean. [01.01.17] Mr. DEAN. It was after--another point that came up In the conversation because we, talked about this subsequently on the 23d when he called me. I told him that I did not, think all of the individuals involved would remain silent. I had very much in mind the matter of Mr. McCord. [01.01.41] Now, I would like to put something else that has Just occurred to me that I do not believe has come out in the question and answer with regard to Mr. McCord. Shortly before the sentencing, I had a call from Mr. Mitchell and he suggested that Mr. Caulfield get back in touch again with Mr. McCord. I called Mr. Caulfield and talked to him about it and he said, well, I think I had better talk to you. I said well, fine. He said, I -want to come to your office and see you. And he came into my office and he told me--he came In with a small diary that, he had found in his car, and he said that he had described one of the meetings that he had had with Mr. McCord. that he had driven into the Country with Mr. McCord and had a discussion with him. Just, shortly before this meeting in January--no; it was much later than January. Excuse me, it was in March that he was cleaning his car out and found this small diary, and apparently, it was Mr. McCord's. In -it was noted each meeting that he had had with Mr. Caulfield and others and all the subsequent events that he had done. It -was a daily diary and was up to the day that Mr. Caulfield had met with him. Now. Mr. Caulfield handed it to me and I handed it back to Mr. Caulfield. Now, Caulfield, and he said, I do not want this, and he tore it, up and put it; in his pocket. [01.03.17-DEAN suspects that McCORD will talk soon] It was based on Oat that I told Mr. Mitchell that I did not think that it was very wise that Mr. Caulfield and Mr. McCord meet further, because it was quite obvious to me, as it was to Mr. Caulfield that Mr. McCord was keeping a very accurate diary of all of his activities. Senator BAKER. Let us go back to your conversation with the President---- [01.03.40-TAPE OUT]
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This 1950s b/w footage is silent. THere are a lot of leopard-skin furs in this film. It shows models wearing furs, men in white coats cleaning furs in various ways, and a row of elderly women mending furs. Finally, it shows the warehouse with the rows and rows of furs. Fashion.
[01.03.39-Sen. BAKER interrogating DEAN on his March 21, 1973 meeting with NIXON.] Senator BAKER. Let us go back to your conversation with the President, we are on March 21 still. Can you recall any--- Mr. DEAN. I was explaining that. But even before this. you know, before the sentencing. I was quite confident that McCord was the Most likely individual who would not remain silent and I did not-- specifying who it was. [01.04.06-DEAN testifies about warning NIXON that the COVERUP was bound to unravel] I told the President that I did not think it was possible that, all of these individuals would remain silent forever. Senator BAKER. But Mr. McCord and the incident, that you have just related are what you had in mind when you made that statement to the, President? Mr. DEAN. That is correct. Senator BAKER. Go -ahead, if you will. Mr. DEAN. I also-and without repeating, unless you want me to repeat it in full again, because I have repeated it several times now, is the matter about the fact of Mr. Hunt's demand that came directly to me through Mr. O'Brien, came up in the conversation. Senator BAKER. Is this a conversation with the President? Mr. DEAN. That is correct. Senator BAKER. On March 21? Mr. DEAN. That is correct. Senator BAKER. Is it fully noted in your testimony? Mr. DEAN. Yes, it is, and--- [01.05.00] Senator BAKER. Is the language used in your testimony, prepared statement, exact enough for us to assume that that is precisely what you said and the President said, to the best of your recollection? Mr. DEAN. Mr. Vice Chairman, I have exercised the greatest degree of care, particularly with my conversations with the, President in my written statement. I have tried to not overstate anything and pursuant to the committee's desire to have the facts, to not understate anything. Senator BAKER. All right now. How many-just, so I know whether to ask you to do it again or not--how many more meetings are there, that you need to describe? [01.05.39-DEAN describes subsequent meetings with NIXON] Mr. DEAN. Well, there are several meetings. There is a meeting on the afternoon of the 21st. There is a meeting on the afternoon of the 22d and there is a meeting when some of these things were repeated, on April 15. Senator BAKER. All right, we have three more meetings to discuss; is that right? Mr. DEAN. That is correct, Senator BAKER. I think for the sake of time I will accept your written statement in that respect. Would you move on then to the afternoon of March 21? Mr. DEAN. This was a meeting that was attended by Mr. Haldeman Mr. Ehrlichman, and myself. When the meeting first commenced--- Senator BAKER. In the Oval Office? Mr. DEAN. No, this was in the Executive Office. [01.06.26] When the Meeting first commenced, Mr. Ziegler was in the President's office, as I recall, and as the meeting settled down, Mr. Ziegler departed the meeting very-shortly thereafter, I have no recollection of how long he was in there, but I would not say, oh. 4, 5, 10 minutes at the most was he there. but there was no conversation because he was still conversing with the President about some press matter at that point in time. Senator BAKER. Anyway, for the purposes of your narrative can we assume that Mr. Ziegler was not privy to any of the Watergate conversation? Mr. DEAN. That is correct. Senator BAKER. All right, sir. Go ahead. [01.07.02-MEETING with NIXON discussing the coverup, DEAN is not entirely clear on the meeting] Mr. DEAN. And that meeting is the meeting in which there were about having Mr. Mitchell come down and there were some discussions about this committee and there -were. some discussions about the fact that I was going to the grand jury, as I recall. but I was very--I have a -very difficult time recalling that meeting for this reason: I was very upset at what, had occurred that morning, had not accomplished the. goal that I wanted to accomplish and so the most important thing--- Senator BAKER. If Will [01.07.42-DEAN, appearing despondent, recounts the meeting with HALDEMAN, EHRLICHMAN, and NIXON, where DEAN contradicted H. and E.'s assessment of the sustainability of the coverup] Mr. DEAN. [continuing]. If I might finish--that occurred during that meeting is that the President would, as was an often practice with the President would go around to each individual to ask them for- their Judgment on a given point, and every time he got to me I would say No I disagree and finally, it got around to "Why do you disagree," and for the first time, I said in front of the President and in front of Mr. Haldeman and Mr. Ehrlichman, I said, "I think that Mr. Haldeman Mr. Ehrlichman, and myself are indictable." [01.08.13] Senator BAKER. You anticipated my question. I was about to my if you would please state the important feature, of that. conversation. Is there any other significant and important part of the afternoon conversation other than that? Mr. DEAN. That is, sir, the most significant, thing because I call recall Mr. Ehrlichman was rather unhappy, as I said, when I said that. [01.08.37-DEAN discusses when he finally crossed EHRLICHMAN on the COVERUP] Senator BAKER. What did Mr. Ehrlichman say or how did he express his unhappiness? Mr. DEAN. Well, it, was kind of, you know, a look and, you know, kind of a pained expression. and he did not reach across the table, and Swing at me of- anything of that nature, but, it was quite evident that when one, man looks at another man you can tell whether--- Senator BAKER. In addition to that nonverbal communication did Mr. Ehrlichman say anything to you at. that, point that, might be significant, to this record? Mr. DEAN. I think it is--my recollection of his particular response is not that good because I Just have a very clear impression that, he, was unhappy. I know that subsequently to that, and I do not -want to confuse subsequent events with events that occurred during the course of that meeting. that Mr. Ehrlichman got into a little discussion with me about obstruction of justice laws and I told him that he ought to pull his code down because I had had a rather interesting encounter with Mr. Ehrlichman the very first time I had met him back in 1970 when he was becoming counsel to the President, I met him in Senator Hruska's office, as a matter of fact, and he said, "Well, I have just been down to my new office where I am going, to be counsel and they do not have any law books down there and the first thing I am going to do is put some law books down there." [01.10.06]
Hullabaloo Show 13 Part 2 Host: Paul Anka (4/6/65)
[01.10.06-DEAN discusses March 21, 1973, when he dissented from HALDEMAN and EHRLICHMAN on continuing the coverup, telling NIXON that HALDEMAN, EHRLICHMAN, and DEAN were probably indictable for obstructing justice] Well, when I went, to Mr. Ehrlichman's office when he was counsel he did not have any law books in his office either. And he said, "Would You bring me a copy of that section of the code," as I did have the law books in my office and I thought, I told him he ought to look up section 1503 of title 18 of the, United States Code and particularly read the annotations thereunder. [01.10.31] Senator BAKER. All right, sir. What did Mr. Haldeman if anything, when you indicated to the President that, you disagreed because you thought Ehrlichman, Haldeman. and Dean were indictable? What reaction did you have from Mr. Haldeman, particularly -what did he say? Mr. DEAN. I had discussed this with Mr. Haldeman on earlier Occasions. I do not recall a reaction at that meeting that afternoon because I had already talked to him about this in a meeting he and I had had shortly after the election and before the version of the Dean report which was put in writing and has been submitted to this committee as an exhibit. Senator BAKER. But more to the point and just for the moment, did Mr. Haldeman say anything to you -at that juncture? Mr. DEAN. I cannot recall him saying anything at that point, no. [01.11.13-a hint that NIXON, with HALDEMAN AND EHRLICHMAN, was working to set up MITCHELL for the blame] Senator BAKER. Did the President say anything at that point? Mr. DEAN. No, this is toward the end of the meeting, and I am sure the discussion was that Dean is wrong, because there was no change. There was discussion about the fact that Mr. Mitchell, that was part of the discussion at that meeting, that Mr. Mitchell should come down the next morning. In fact, when Mr.--during the morning meeting, at the conclusion of the meeting the President called for Mr. Haldeman to come into the office and -what he told, what -the President told Mr. Haldeman was, is, -that "John Mitchell should come, down and you all should have a meeting with him." Senator BAKER. We are, back to the morning meeting? Mr. DEAN. We are back to the morning meeting but that is because I am not going into every detail and jumping back and forth to try to explain it to you. [01.12.09] Senator BAKER. All right, sir, go ahead. Mr. DEAN. The next meeting with the President., and I am leaving out the intervening meetings with Haldeman and Ehrlichman at this point, the next meeting with the President occurred on the afternoon of the 22d. Senator BAKER. Before you go to that, Mr. Dean, did the President say anything that you can recall, or let me, put it in two parts, did the President say anything when you said Ehrlichman, Haldeman, and Dean might be indictable and if he did say something if you can recall, what did he say? [01.12.39-DEAN says that he can't recall NIXON'S reaction to his statement that DEAN, HALDEMAN, and EHRLICHMAN were indictable-must not have been a very strong, surprised reaction?] Mr. DEAN. I cannot recall what the President, said. I thought I had dropped a bomb -which I obviously had in front, of the President, and certainly the explosion was still going over in my ears and I was not listening, I was looking at Mr.----- Senator BAKER. But you have no recollection that the President did or -did not speak. Mr. DEAN. No. As I recall, the meeting ended on the note that "Let us have Mr. Mitchell come down and you all have a little discussion with Mr. Mitchell about these problems the next morning. Senator BAKER. Who suggested that? Mr. DEAN. I do not know. I am trying to be very careful. Senator BAKER. All right,, would you move on to March 22? Mr. DEAN. To the meeting with the President that afternoon? Senator BAKER. Yes, Sir. [01.13.28] Mr. DEAN. The. meeting with the President. on March '22 was like many, many meetings that I had attended, in -which there was a general discussion of this committee, questions of executive privilege at one point in that meeting, the President picked up the telephone and called the Attorney General because he had a report from Mr. Timmons that apparently Mr. Kleindienst was not dealing with you On working out problems with this committee, and Mr. Mitchell referred to the fact that the President had had no problems excepting the fact that there is probably -in over--he has overstated the executive privilege position and he is taking a beating on that and there should be some retraction or pulling back to a point on that. [01.14.22] Senator BAKER. This was John Mitchell's advice? Mr. DEAN. That is correct. Senator BAKER. Go ahead, sir. Mr. DEAN. At one point during the discussions I asked the President to excuse, myself because I was working on a statement with Mr. Ziegler regarding the Gray comment that I had probably lied. I went from--you are, familiar with the President President's Executive Office, we were sitting On the, sofa in the office and Mr. Haldeman was sitting in a chair or Mr. Haldeman and Ehrlichman were on the sofa and the President was on a chair facing as you were, facing us on the right and Mr. Mitchell in a chair on the left and I pulled up a chair at the other end of the table between the President and Mr. Mitchell and I asked to excuse myself to go handle, this matter. The, President asked me what it was about. I explained to him what, it was about, he said "Go over to the corner and use the phone by the table," which I did and went over and had a quiet conversation with Mr. Ziegler for 10 minutes or so on the telephone, and then I rejoined the meeting and the discussion was still focusing around this committee, and the executive privilege question. [01.15.35]
[01.15.35-DEAN discussing March 22, 1973 meeting with NIXON, HALDEMAN, EHRLICHMAN on maintaining coverup through ERVIN COMMITTEE investigation] At that point. the, President turned to me and said --John, I think that, you ought to go up and discuss with Senator Ervin the parameters of executive privilege" and I said to the President, "I thought that would be very unwise because, I am the, point at, issue in the Gray hearings and I am there negotiating my own position." He agreed. and Mr. Ehrlichman said that he would come, and visit with Senator Ervin on discussing executive privilege vis-a-vis appearances of White House, staff. The meeting was very much of this tenor. There was nothing dramatic that happened. and again this was somewhat to my surprise. The meeting concluded, Haldeman and Ehrlichman departed the, office, Mr. Mitchell stayed 'and had a social conversation -with the President, they were talking about----- Senator BAKER. Were you there at the time? [01.16.31] Mr. DEAN. I -was in and out for this reason, here is a point that I had really forgotten about that, occurred in front of Mr. Mitchell. The President said in front of Mr. Mitchell that "John has been doing an excellent job on this whole problem." and it was just a compliment he paid me in front of Mr. Mitchell. I Was trying to make just make an arrangement for Mr. Mitchell to meet with Paul O'Brien who had been wanting to meet with him and as; you know outside. the President's suite there, there is an empty office that he makes available for guests. I was talking to the, receptionist as to Mr. Mitchell's availability of that. I went even to that office myself I called my secretary to tell her to make arrangements for Mr. O'Brien to come over to meet with Mr. Mitchell in that office. I meanwhile went back in the President's office and told the President and Mr. Mitchell that that office had been set up and that my secretary was trying to arrange the meeting so that Mr. O'Brien and Mr. Mitchell could meet and, as I recall, I departed then for Mr. Ziegler's office, again to see, what had happened with the White House response on Mr. Gray's statement regarding myself. Senator BAKER. All right. Does that conclude the important aspects of the March 22 meeting? Mr. DEAN. I think that does; yes. Senator BAKER. And once again with the caveat that whatever else you have said in your prepared statement will be incorporated for the purposes of our colloquy here. [01.18.05] Do we move then to April 15? Mr. DEAN. That is correct. Senator BAKER. All right. Would you go ahead, please. Mr. DEAN. Well, I might add, now, I had a conversation with the President on March 23. Senator BAKER. All right. Would you tell us about that? Mr. DEAN. The President suggested, as he had on previous occasions, and in fact my wife and I had talked about it, he had said, "John, have, you ever been up to Camp David," and I said "Well, only once on a very brief visit" which had been on November 15, Senator BAKER. Where was this conversation? Mr. DEAN. These were in the Oval Office and they would come up at the end of a meeting or something in which he had suggested I go to Camp David to enjoy Camp David. Senator BAKER. What time during the day of March 23? Mr. DEAN. Did I receive the call? Senator BAKER. I am not quite sure I understand. Mr. DEAN. All right. Senator BAKER. There was a meeting 'with the President. [01.19.00] Mr. DEAN. I was referring to the fact that, I know there has been some--I have read in the press that, you know, the President was continually trying to send me to Camp David. Well, the invitations I was getting to go to Camp David were not to go for any personal reasons other than to go up and enjoy Camp David and relax as during the Gray hearings as my name was coming more to the forefront and the President was telling me, "Don't bother to read the newspaper, I have been through this sort of thing before," and he told me, that on countless occasions to ignore the newspapers and not let this get to me. And I had relayed this to my wife and told her that the President had been very gracious in saying that we should go to Camp David and enjoy the facilities up there. [01.19.45] Senator BAKER. Was there a meeting on March 23? Mr. DEAN. No; there was a telephone call that came in, it must have been after lunch time, some time, I don't recall precisely when, what hour, but we arrived there at about 3:30 or so. so I would say that the call probably came in, given the fact that it is about over a 2-hour ride, about 1, 1:30 or so, and I would assume the President was calling, by then he had left for Florida. [01.20.18] The President said to me, he said. the most interesting thing I remember that is relevant to your inquiry now is, he said, "Well, John, your prediction is correct." That was in reference to the fact on the 21st I told him I thought one of the defendants, would--would not remain, not all the defendants would remain silent and here in fact this had occurred when Mr. McCord had submitted his letter to the court on the 23d. [01.20.48-BAKER continues to examine DEAN'S conversations with NIXON at a point when the COVERUP was in serious jeopardy] Senator BAKER. Let's examine that just a Moment, Mr. Dean. Did the President say that, you were proved correct because McCord has said so and so or is this an inference you draw from the circumstances? Mr. DEAN. Well, he was quite aware of the fact that McCord had, in the conversation that came up he was aware of the fact, that McCord's letter had been read in court that morning. Senator BAKER. Tell me what he said, please? Mr. DEAN. He just acknowledged the fact that he was aware of Mr. McCord having submitted a letter to the court. Senator BAKER. Can you recall the language? Mr. DEAN. No; I cannot, [01.21.26]
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