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August 4, 1994 - Part 9
(19:20:25) But it doesn't strike me this is someone who was to be pressured. He obviously was having some real questions about this himself, and he said in testimony he wished he had just made it in the first place, so obviously he's uncertain during all of this. That is obviously clear. But the question of whether or not that uncertainty was arrived at as a result of pressure or his own doubts about the decision, I think it's pretty clear. In my view, it was because of his own doubts about it rather than someone exercising pressure. That's just my opinion. Let me move very quickly to the second issue, which I think is extremely important. Mr. Ickes, this has to do with your testimony, and the meeting on February 2nd. I want to return to your testimony, I may. First, as I understand it, you took notes at that meeting, and I think you included them with your opening statement; is that not correct? Mr. ICKES. I did, Senator Dodd. Senator DODD. Do these notes reflect what was being said at that meeting by Mr. Altman? Mr. ICKES. Well, the notes are very summary. It was a meet in my recollection of some 45 minutes or so so these notes 419 some aspects of that meeting, and some of those-most of those notes, to my recollection, reflect what was being said in some respects by Mr. Altman. Senator DODD. These notes reflect, at least to the extent they reflect what was said at that meeting, not necessarily everything that was said at that meeting, but they're an accurate reflection in your mind regarding the items of which you took notes about. Mr. ICKES. Yes. Senator DODD. Now, you gave a deposition to this Committee, did you not? Mr. ICKES. I did, sir. Senator DODD. Now, I'm going to read some of this deposition, if I may. I'll start on page 121 around line 11. This is Mr. Codinha, our Chief Counsel who asked "did Mr. Altman discuss the steps that the RTC was taking to got the information that they would need in order to make a determination on the statute of limitations?" Mr. Bennett-now, Mr. Bennett is your attorney. Mr. ICKES. He is. Senator DODD. Is that Mr. Robert Bennett? Mr. ICKES. Yes, sir. Senator DODD. "Mr. BENNETT: I'm going to ask, in fairness to the witness, if what your objective is to find out what happened, if you could show him his notes which were taken in real time. I mean, if you want an accurate rather than a guessing years later. "Mr. CODINHA. Years later? "Mr. BENNETT. Not years later. Months and months. The point is the most accurate record is his contemporaneous notes, so we don't get into a guessing game. I'd ask you to show him his notes. "By Mr. Codinha. "Question: Mr. Ickes, as best you recall, what was said about the subject? "Mr. BENNETT. Go ahead. Guess. Do your best." Is that the advice of your Counsel, to guess? Mr. ICKES. I think that that is an accurate transcription of Mr. Bennett's Senator DODD. Let me make a point here because depositions are different than trials, although someone might conclude we are in a trial setting. But in depositions it's not necessary nor is it required-in fact, it's allowed in many cases for witnesses to bring notes and extraneous material to refresh their memories in a deposition. Normally, in the conduct of a trial or a hearing, people do bring notes and are allowed to refer to those notes in order to refresh their memory. So what Mr. Codinha did in this particular case is entirely proper in the conduct of depositions, and I want that to be very, very clear here. But the fact of the matter is you were not allowed to look at your notes in responding to the questions. Is that true? Mr. ICKES. That is correct, Senator. Senator DODD. And your Counsel said, then, to guess in your answers. That was his advice. Mr. ICKES. He said "go ahead, guess. Do your best." Senator DODD. I'd like you to take a look at your notes, if you can. After you were asked to look at your notes-well, you've done 420 that. Let me go back to this point that Senator Kerry was raising earlier about the issue of whether or not you heard Mr. Altman state that it would be--I'm paraphrasing here--impossible or almost impossible to bring the claims prior to February 28 because they wouldn't be ready. Mr. ICKES. Senator, as I think I made-I hope I made clear in my opening statement, there's a distinction between deciding whether or not an agency should go ahead and litigate a full blown case, and there's obviously a number of considerations that go into that. Chief among them, whether there's a reasonable possibility of winning, the cost involved, et cetera, as opposed to whether there's sufficient evidence to file a claim.
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August 4, 1994 - Part 9
(19:25:31) It was my understanding, based on my notes that I took, which basically reflect what Mr. Altman was telling us in part during that meeting, that the RTC- the statute of limitations was approaching. The deadline, as I understood it, was February 28th. That had been discussed during January by Senator D'Amato and other Members of the Senate, that the statute of limitations was drawing to a close, but that given that, as I understood what Mr. Altman was saying, they could either seek a tolling agreement from among the various parties that might be involved in any possible civil lawsuit or commence litigation to preserve the claim. So as I think I tried to make clear in my opening statement, I understood that they could either seek a tolling agreement or that they could file a protective lawsuit, for lack of a better word. Senator DODD. That's very important in my view. There's a distinction here. The distinction between a completed suit, which would mean that you'd have everything ready, absolutely tight and set to go. Nothing hanging out? Mr. ICKES. And to have made a final decision based on the various factors including the signoff by the various people in the agency, Senator. Senator DODD. As opposed to a protective suit, which means that you could file that without having necessarily all of the information necessary-is it Rule 11 test. I believe all of us are familiar that Ms. Kulka, who was in charge of these, stated that she was confident that could be done, so that is a bit different from what we've been told your testimony was. Mr. Altman then made--did he make it clear to you that a protective suit could be brought? Mr. ICKES, It was-based on his discussion and based on my notes of his discussion and certainly based on his talking points, which I've subsequently seen-as I've testified, I did not see them at the time of the meeting on the 2nd, it was clear to me that one of the considerations being taken into account at the RTC was whether or not they would file a protective suit. That was different, in my mind, as to whether they had sufficient evidence and had taken into account all the conversations to proceed with a full blown lawsuit. Senator DODD. Now, did you tell the President or the First Lady about the February 2nd meeting? Mr ICKES I've testified that I did. I don't recall when or where. Senator DODD. Did you tell the President and the First Lady that they could decline to sign a tolling agreement because the RTC- would not be able to put a case before the February 28th deadline? 421 Mr. ICKES. I am confident that I did not, Senator. Senator DODD. Mr. Chairman, I think that makes it a bit clear, in my view, the distinction between a completed suit and a protective suit and I think that distinction is important. I see the clock has run out-but we've received testimony and I'm sure my colleagues will remember this, from Ms. Kulka about the February 1st meeting with Mr. Altman in which she testifies that she received full authority to proceed. She told Mr. Altman there was no difficulty in proceeding on the 28th, and that with the exception of Ms. Williams, who I think said she really couldn't remember exactly what was said on this point-I may be wrong on that-but my recollection is everyone else recalled the conversation pretty much as Mr. Altman stated it was. Now what you're saying to us, Mr. Ickes, is that the distinction between the completed suit and the protective suit better characterizes your recollection of that meeting. Mr. ICKES. It was certainly my recollection, Senator, The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Dodd. Senator D'Amato. senator DAMATO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman Senator DOMENICI. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I could ask a couple of questions. Senator DAmato? Senator DAMATO. Certainly. Senator DOMENICI. I won't use 10 minutes, if you're in a hurry, but I haven't asked any questions of this panel yet. Mr. Ickes, when these hearings opened, I had read your deposition, and I made a statement in my opening remarks on one of the most important issues regarding your deposition. Now, that's not too long ago, your deposition?
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August 4, 1994 - Part 9
(19:30:27) Mr. ICKES. I think the date, Senator, was Sunday, July 24th, Senator DOMENICI. All right. Now, Mr. Ickes you stated in your deposition that there was no mention of this suit to preserve a claim. It is nowhere in your deposition. Your deposition says the purpose of this meeting and the focus of this discussion was the amount of time in which he felt this investigation might be wrapped up. And he said, at least in so many words, that it was his understanding that the investigation probably would not be concluded and a determination could not be made by the RTC's General Counsel as to whether there was a basis for a civil claim until after the expiration of that statute of limitations. Mr. Ickes, you know what I think has happened? I think you all have been talking about this, and this is the most damaging testimony with reference to why the White House did not want Mr. Altman to get out of this position in the RTC. Your testimony under oath establishes that the White House could very well want him in there because he's the decisionmaker-notwithstanding this "de 'facto recusal" business-and there were still 3 weeks before the statute of limitation would run. In fact, he would be the one making--a decision as to whether or not this lawsuit got filed. Now, frankly, Mr. Altman took the witness stand and he said three different times, "wait 'til Mr. Ickes comes up here; he will deny this or he will change his mind about this." And guess what happened? You did. in fact, it will be very tough for anybody to understand this record as to what you really are saying. You told Sen- 422 ator D'Amato three times that what you said in your deposition was true. Now, there is absolutely no mention in this about a 44 protective suit." And it appears nowhere in your deposition. All Of a sudden, it appears today. And it appears in your opening remarks, and the reason I think it occurred, and the reason I think that Mr. Altman was so sure it was going to occur is because the talk around the White House, at least between Altman and you or Counsel, Legal Counsel, was "Mr. Ickes, you got a big problem," You've got a big problem. Senator DODD. Would you yield on that point just for a moment? Senator DOMENICI. Let me finish the thought and I'd be pleased to yield. I haven't had a chance to talk yet. Senator DODD. I haven't either. But I might point, you've got a cumulation of testimony, Ms. Kulka on February 1st, and then all the other participants in that meeting with the exception of one who's unclear. And even if you disregard Mr. Ickes, it seems to me when you're- looking and trying to determine what was said-Ms. Kulka, who has no axe to grind, here is one thing but Senator DAMATO. She wasn't there. Senator DODD. I'm talking. Senator D'AMATO. Wait a minute. Senator DODD. Wait a second. Senator D'AMATO. I let you go well over your time; didn't say a word. You ask him and make a statement that's incorrect. Ms. Kulka was not there. Senator KERRY. Senator Senator DODD, I said on the February 1st meeting Senator DOMENICI. Could I retain my time? Senator DODD. Certainly. Senator DOMENICI. Would you not charge me, I've had no opportunity to say anything thus far and I wanted to make my point. The CHAIRMAN. Fair enough. Senator DOMENICI. Frankly, it seems to me that you assumedrightfully or wrongfully-that when Mr. Roger Altman talked about recusal at the February 2nd meeting, you assume that it was very important that he stay in that job. I cannot extract anything different than that from what occurred. Is it true or not that you still considered him to be the ultimate decisionmaker until he actually recused himself?
August 4, 1994 - Part 9
(19:45:35) Senator DODD. I don't disagree with that. I'm saying if you're ana question, you've been a witness, I've been a witness, and say let me look at my notes as I answer you, or in a trial you ,tauve the right to look at your notes to refresh your memory. So the fact that you have, you've been over them, the fact that you're re 426 sponding to a question and your lawyer says, guess, do your when we're now down to an important matter in this matter I like to rely on a guess, that's why I went over the distinction between a concluded claim and a protective claim. I appreciate you reading into the record because our witnesses do have an opportunity-we're on a tight schedule but nonetheless, they have a right to come back if they didn't like it and be deposed. The CHAIRMAN. Absolutely. Senator Shelby. Mr. ICKES. Mr. Chairman, I just want to make clear here. I think the statement read by the Senator is a little out of context. If you go to the preceding page, page 86 Senator DODD. Which Senator are you talking about now? Mr. ICKES. Senator Domenici. I think if you read the lead-in that, on line (19:46:38)(tape #10094 ends)
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August 4, 1994 - Part 9
(19:35:19) Mr. ICKES. Senator, may I respond? Senator DOMENICI. That's the question. Answer it. Mr. ICKES. May I respond? Senator DOMENICI. Of course. Answer it. Mr. ICKES. First of all, you stated, I think, earlier in your long statement that Mr. Altman and I had gotten together on this testimony. That is absolutely untrue, Senator. I've never discussed with Mr. Altman this testimony or anything about it, point one, and I want that very clear for the record. Number two--number two, Senator, this statement that you've referred to--one can quibble about the words that were used, but the fact of the matter is there is a distinction, and I have made that distinction both in my testimony here today and in my open- ing statement, between a final determination as whether to proceed with a lawsuit, and there are a number of considerations, and the 423 lawyers on this panel know that. One is cost. Two is possibility of outcome. Three, when you're dealing with a Federal agency, presumably there's a chain of command you have to go through before those final decisions are made. They often take time. That is different, Senator, from having enough evidence to file a lawsuit to preserve a claim. So that is what I was talking about. I think I made that very clear both in my testimony here today and in my opening statement. And the final point, Senator, I was never asked the follow-up questions by Counsel. Senator DOMENICI. Mr. Ickes, do you have any idea how Roger Altman could be so certain before us that you were going to disavow your earlier statement about what was said with reference to the status of the preparation of the lawsuit? Where might he have Mr. ICKES. Senator, you'll have to ask Mr. Altman that. I did not hear his statement. I did not watch the proceedings. I don't know what he said, but I do know one thing and I've stated it several times before this hearing, that during the February 2nd meeting, it's my clear understanding from what Mr. Altman said that he was going to follow the recommendation of the staff attorneys. So while he was still technically the acting head or whatever his position was of the RTC, he basically, in my view, had taken himself out of the decisionmaking chain with respect to the Madison inquiry. Senator KERRY. Would my friend yield? Senator DOMENICI. Let me state one further thing. See if this is correct. You had a chance to correct this deposition, did you not? Mr. ICKES. I had a chance to correct it. I saw no need to correct it, Senator. Senator DOMENICI. And you had what some people think is the best lawyer in the United States on defense matters representing you, and you did not see fit to change this record with reference to this protective suit that you didn't tell us about? Mr. ICKES. Senator, I wasn't asked that question and I made clear in my opening statement the distinctions. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Domenici--- Senator DOMENICI. Is my time up? The CHAIRMAN. Time is up, but there will be another round for You to pursue this as much as you care to. Senator DOMENICI. I surely want to ask Mr. Ickes exactly what he considered the head of the RTC to be at that point. He maintains that he apparently was a figure head and I don't think they were treating him as a figure head. I think that's a very, very important issue for us to find the answer to. Mr. ICKES. Senator, I want to make two additional points, if I 'nay. My contemporaneous notes, which are on file with the Committee and are attached, I think, to my opening statement, made clear that one of the alternatives open to the RTC was to commence litigation to preserve claim, number one. Number two, I've been informed by my attorney that the only corrections we were Permitted to make on the record were typographical. 424 Senator KERRY. Can I point out to my friend from New Mexico, Senator Senator DOMENICI. Let me say that's not how we understand the depositions, and we'll just ask that question later on. You were given time to correct this record, not just to correct typographical errors. The CHAIRMAN. Before calling on you, Senator Kerry Senator DODD. What's the answer to that? Senator D'AMATO. There are Counsel here. Is that true? Mr. PODESTA. That was not my understanding. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Mine neither. senator DODD. What's the answer to the question? senator D'AMATO. What was the limitations as it relates to notes or corrections of records? We have both Counsel here, Majority. There's no limitation as it relates to corrections. Counsel said that they're on the record. It is said that if someone wants to correct the record and it's substantive, he may be redeposed on that change. There is no limitation, nothing about that you can make just typographical corrections, and as it relates to notes, the record shows very clearly that the notes were available.
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Sports (list on box)