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August 3, 1994 - Part 7
(18:50:24) Mr. EGGLESTON. Yes, sir. When I talked a out the question from Senator Bond, I think that the question was, when did the White House first learn about the criminal referrals or when did the RTC first tell about the criminal referrals? I think Senator Bond's question was tied to the criminal referrals. I was not on the call with Mr. Altman, and my recollection of what Mr. Podesta said to me afterwards is not real strong, but I have some recollection that he said something like that Mr. Altman--I want to be careful because I don't want to mischaracterize it, but that Mr. Altman said that he didn't know about them, didn't want to know about them, and Mr. Podesta had said, well, you should talk to Ms. Hanson about them. That's my recollection. Senator DOMENICI. There is no doubt in your mind that recusal was brought to his attention and that criminal referrals were at least brought to his attention? Mr. EGGLESTON. Sir, I know that in the meeting right before the call we raised it. I know that Mr. Podesta is an honorable man, and I think that afterwards he told me that he had raised it. So my sense-that's how I think it was raised, but I obviously don't have any personal knowledge of the call between Mr. Podesta and Mr. Altman. Senator DOMENICI. I said a while ago that I was very pleased with the forthright answers you have given, all of you. I'm refer-. ring specifically to yours because you were asked why Mr. Nussbaum was concerned about recusal, and you ticked off a whole bunch of reasons; the politics of the situation, the press was concerned. You see, Mr. Altman-Roger Altman-Roger doesn't even do that. We ask him that question and we can't get an answer. Now, having said that, I wonder if you would just quickly look at both of those letters. I think you looked at the one that was,: given to you dated March 2nd. Would you look at the other one? It's a little longer. Am I correct that neither of these letters tells' 135 the U.S. Senate Committee on Banking that there were two issues, namely recusal and criminal referral, that were not referred to in his testimony as the subject matter of meetings? Mr. EGGLESTON. I think they're not referenced in either of these letters. senator DOMENICI. As you read it, isn't there an effort to tell us there were two meetings? Would you see if you can find it, on the second one in particular? Mr. EGGLESTON. Well, the March 3rd one appears to be about the February 2nd meeting, if I'm reading that correctly. The March 2nd one indicates that there had been meetings between the Treasury staff and the White House staff that relate to the handling of press inquiries. Senator DOMENICI. OK. Now, you're a very forthright person and you could just as well be sitting back here where one of us sitsand maybe going through your mind is that you might do a lot better than some of us. That's probably true. But it seems to me in the March 2nd letter, there's almost an effort to try to tell us that a meeting occurred, but not to tell us what the subject was. It says in my information is that both related to the handling of press inquiries." Now, I just want to ask you, do you think anybody on this Committee or our staff reviewing this because he's correcting the record would know anything about those meetings if he said "handling of press inquiries"? What does that mean to you, "handling of press inquiries"? Would you guess that they were about criminal referrals? I wouldn't think so. Mr. EGGLESTON. Well, I don't see that there's a reference to criminal referral. I do want to say one thing, though, which is that I do think that the October 14th meeting related to the handling of press inquiries regarding the criminal referral-I'm sorry, Senator Domenici, I was talking when-I think that the October 14th meeting that I attended-I did not attend the September 29th meeting, and I don't know, but the October 14th meeting that I attended, my recollection is that it covered the handling of press inquiries related to the criminal referral. The letter still didn't say anything about criminal referral, but the meeting did relate to the handling of press inquiries related to the criminal referral.
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August 3, 1994 - Part 7
(18:55:23) Senator DOMENICI. I understand. So what he's telling us is: "it's enough for you to know that they were about press inquiries. You don't have to know what the subject was." That's the way I read it. Now, you don't have to answer that. Mr. Klein, do you know something about these letters and the handling of the responses by Roger Altman? Mr. KLEIN. Only that I've read them, sir. That's all I know. Senator DOMENICI. You've seen both of those letters? Mr. KLEIN. I have. Senator DOMENICI. Would you agree generally, so I won't waste a lot of time, with what I've said here and with what your fellow Counsel said about these letters? Mr. KLEIN. Yes, I would. Senator DOMENICI. If you were preparing a letter, either or both Of You, for somebody in the White House that you were responsible for, and you were attempting to answer Mr. Podesta's concerns 136 about Roger Altman not telling us something, is this the kind of letter you'd write? Mr. KLEIN. Sir, again, I don't want to put myself in Mr. Altman's mind. I didn't speak to him. The information that I had, we tried to make sure that it went to Mr. Altman through Mr. Podesta. Mr. EGGLESTON, Senator Domenici, could I say one thing, sir, in the interest of completeness and 1 just offer this. That is that the letter does reference the question from Senator Bond. My recollection is that the question from Senator Bond was about criminal referrals. I just offer that for the what-it's-worth category. He references in the March 2nd letter the question from Senator Bond. He does not point out in the letter that the question related to criminal referrals, but he does reference a question that did relate to criminal referrals. Senator DOMENICI. That's more reason for him to refer to it, it seems to me, since his answer was "no" when it was asked. Is my time up? The CHAIRMAN. It is, and if you had just one follow-up, I'd certainly entertain that because we did that on this side but otherwise we'll go on to another round. Senator DOMENICI. I would also ask both of you, as competent lawyers who work in this field a lot, do you notice anything, inferential or otherwise, in either of these letters that would indicate to this Committee that more corrections are to come? Do you see anything in there that would indicate to us that you've got to fix the record some more? Mr. KLEIN. I don't see it. Obviously, the letters speak for themselves. You can assess them as well as I can. Senator DOMENICI. Let me ask again, if this Committee, under the Chairmanship of Senator Riegle, were wrapping up that February 24th hearing and got these two letters; is there anything to indicate that maybe he's got some more things to correct? To me, I would think it was over with, that there aren't any more. Mr. KLEIN. Again, I don't know. He said he had conversations with people on the Committee. I can tell you what the letter says but you can read it for yourself. Senator DOMENICI. Thank you very much. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Campbell. Thank you for your patience Senator CAMPBELL. Also as my friend Senator Boxer has said, I would like to commend this Committee. I think they've tried to answer in a very forthright manner and to the best of their recollections and very openly. I know it's difficult to answer some of the variety of questions that have been asked. Some of them are reflective of the members' former professions of being criminal prosecutors. Some of them are kind of fishing expeditions, I guess, hoping you're going to run into a hook. And I personally liked Senator Dodd's questions; did you do it or didn't you do it, yes or no, And those are the kind of answers I understand very well when they're asked, but I know you have to answer a big variety of them. (18:59:12)(tape #10082 ends)
August 3, 1994 - Part 8
(19:55:50) And then we made clear we had no idea at all what decision would be reached. I did say, however, that if I received a clear recommendation-this is Mr. Altman's proposed testimony that's being prepared, she's going over it with you-from the RTC's Chief Legal officer, I would follow it. I also said that I was reserving judgment on a recusal. This is what he was about to testify as it related to the meeting on the 2nd. (19:56:18) From tv studio hearings hosts NINA TOTENBERG and KEN BODE close out coverage (19:58:18) WETA logo, PBS funding credits (19:58:39)(tape #10083 ends)
August 3, 1994 - Part 9
(02:03:58) Testimony of JEAN HANSON, JOSHUA STEINER, DENNIS FOREMAN, and JACK DEVORE before House Banking Committee
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August 3, 1994 - Part 8
(18:59:36)(tape #10083 begins) Senator CAMPBELL. That's fine. I'm really interested in the chain of command of who does the assigning of issues and who gets advice from who before moving on any issue. Mr. KLEIN. Typically, Senator, the Counsel to the President, Mr. Nussbaum first, now Mr. Cutler, has overall responsibility for matters. The way, I think, both gentlemen worked was as follows-at least when I was Deputy, and I was only Deputy since December of last year-and that is on many matters, they would deal directly with an Associate Counsel who had-for example, on an ethical matter deal directly with Beth Nolan, on a matter involving some Constitutional issue, might deal directly with Cliff Sloan and so forth. There were other matters that they would assign to me, and then I would reassign some of those or supervise some of those. And that's the way it worked basically, sir. Senator CAMPBELL. If you were Counsel who was assigned a certain area, then you didn't need direction from Mr, Nussbaum. Is that the way it worked? Mr. KLEIN. Again, it would depend on the activity. I think most of the people kept Mr. Nussbaum informed of what they were doing, although, like any people, they exercised some discretion on their own. Senator CAMPBELL. Who directed Mr. Podesta to call Mr. Altman? Mr. KLEIN. My understanding of that is that when these events occurred, there was, I think, as has been said here, some concern, Mr. Eggleston, myself other people. The Chief of Staff, Mr. McLarty, was obviously concerned this matter be dealt with accurately and straightforward and I think he asked Mr. Podesta to kind of get on top of this. That's my impression. You can check with the two of them. Senator CAMPBELL. Would you give me a little rundown again? The press said it took 7 days after the hearing of February 21st for that call to be made and you corrected that and said it wasn't. It was more like 5 and it was because it started on a Thursday and Mr. Nussbaum was in Mexico. Was that Mr. KLEIN. That's correct. Basically, what Mr. Eggleston said which was that he was at the meeting-he was at the hearing on Thursday the 24th, and he Senator CAMPBELL. And you felt that you needed his approval for Mr.- maybe I'm mixed up a little bit here, but Mr. Podesta is a Staff Secretary, is he not? Mr. KLEIN. He is a Staff Secretary, yes, sir. Senator CAMPBELL. Did he need your approval or Mr. Nussbaum's approval to make the call? Mr. KLEIN. I don't think he needed anyone's approval. I think certainly the people on our staff thought it was very important to report this information, to have Mr. Nussbaum there. The information essentially--the hearing ended, obviously, on the end of the day Thursday. The information was in the press on Friday. I learned of some of the information from Mr. Sloan later Friday afternoon. Monday morning, Mr. Nussbaum was going to be back 138 in the office and we got right on it. Tuesday afternoon, we made the phone call, Senator CAMPBELL. Even after that call, it took about another 3 weeks to get the record corrected; is that correct? Mr. KLEIN. Well, there was a series of follow-up letters. I don't have the dates in front of me. Senator CAMPBELL. Were you involved in consultations with Mr, Altman during that period of time? Mr. KLEIN. No, sir, Senator CAMPBELL. Who was? Was there anybody in the White House Counsel who was? Mr. KLEIN. Nobody in the White House Counsel, to my knowledge. The only person I know who had that original phone call was Mr. Podesta. Senator CAMPBELL. Ms. Nolan, you were part of the White House team that discussed whether the White House should correct Mr. Altman's testimony; is that correct? Ms. NOLAN. Senator Campbell, I was in one discussion about it. Senator CAMPBELL. Would you tell us who was also in that discussion? Ms. NOLAN. Mr. Klein, Mr. Nussbaum and, I believe, Mr. Eggleston. Senator CAMPBELL, Was there any difference of opinion or a feeling that perhaps it was unnecessary to make any part of corrections--when you had that meeting, was there sort of a unified approach when you ended up about what corrections should be made or Ms. NOLAN. The part of the discussions I was in, I don't think we reached a final conclusion. What I recall was that the issue was being discussed. This was the first day that Mr. Nussbaum was back, that Monday. And I just recall that we were exploring the issue, so I don't recall a particular conclusion. Senator CAMPBELL. After it was corrected, did Mr. Altman's March 2nd letter to correct the record reflect what you had discussed in that meeting? Ms. NOLAN. Senator Senator CAMPBELL. To the best of your recollection. Ms. NOLAN. I'm not familiar with the letter and I didn't participate in follow- up meetings. Senator CAMPBELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll yield. The CHAIRMAN, Thank you, Senator Campbell. Senator Hatch. Senator HATCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to say, having listened to all of you, I think the White House is served well by its Legal Counsel down there at this time, at least the four of you. But let me ask a couple of questions, Mr. Eggleston, if I can direct them to you, maybe you can help us. You understood from your discussions with Mr. Nussbaum following the February 2nd meeting at the White House that he was very concerned that if Mr. Altman recused himself, Jack Ryan and Ellen Kulka would be in charge of decisionmaking in the Madison Guaranty case; is that right? Mr, EGGLESTON. Mr. Hatch, he was not-he was never concerned about Mr. Ryan. There was never any discussion. 139 Senator HATCH. There was concern about Ellen Kulka? Mr. EGGLESTON. Yes.
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