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August 3, 1994 - Part 4
(15:05:33) But the one thing I ought to make clear, sir, is that the question was asked in a room of a hundred people listening to a seminar; it was extremely noisy. I think there were probably children there. This is the best of my recollection at that time. Senator BOND. Again, that's troublesome, but you contacted members of the White House Counsel's Office, Ms. Hanson's office and others, is that correct, in following up on the discussion you had with the President? Mr. LUDWIG. After having the question posed to me by the President, I wanted to give it considered attention. I could have been reflexive. I mean, the reflexive answer is I'm a regulator, I can't have any contact. But after all it was the President who posed the question to me. As a lawyer for many years, I wanted to give it considered attention. Senator BOND. Isn't that why you have the protection of an ethics officer in the agency? Doesn't that give you the cover? Nobody wants to tell the President no, but isn't that why you have an ethics officer, so you make somebody else the fall guy, or woman, if the case may be, to say no, to help you say no? Mr. LUDWIG. Well, I spoke to the lawyers. Jean Hanson is the Chief Counsel of the Treasury. She is the chief attorney to whom our chief attorney reports. It seemed to me that was the place to start. Senator BOND. But at that point, did she give you the advice not to carry it further? Mr. LUDWIG. As I say, sir, she was negative. As I remember it, she had a cautionary tone. She gave me minuscule advice or information about Madison. Senator BOND. Did she give you any specific ethics advice? 73 Mr. LUDWIG. No. As I say, she had a cautionary tone, but I do not remember a specific absolutely not or absolutely yes statement. She was cautionary. Senator BOND. But then even after having done that, you went ahead and made a follow-up call later on. After you said no improper contacts occurred, you made a follow-up call to Maggie Williams' office, and offered them your general advice. Mr. LUDWIG. Senator, it was clear to me if I were to get involved in a discussion with the President to give advice of whatever kind, I would have a tendency as a lawyer to want to know all the facts and circumstances and that can lead you into areas of impropriety or at least the appearance of impropriety. On the other hand, there are certainly some things one could say that clearly would violate nothing, that would be not inappropriate. It seems to me that giving the advice "disclose everything," which I did with Ms. Williams, not with the President, seems to me to be appropriate. Senator BOND. I think not only do lawyers have the problem of wanting to know all the facts, they want to give advice and I think that sometimes gets us into trouble. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with your conduct, I would just say that this is why an ethics counsel, who can be the abominable "no" man, can be held in protection in these situations. But as I conclude, I would only note that really the tone of the contact to you, contact to you by the President is the one which has set the tone that I think has raised questions throughout this hearing. I appreciate your candor, and I would just say that there has to be a heightened sensitivity to the work and the role of ethics officers in the Federal Government, something different than perhaps in the private sector. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Bond. Let me just say for the record that I'm now going to include in the record Mr. Ludwig's memo of March 11, his recusal memo of February 24th and the two F01A requests, number 1183 to 86. Let me also indicate to my colleagues on this side, I've talked to Senator D'Amato and other Senators have questions. They have completed their questioning at this point on this side so when we finish, we'll be able to go on to the next panel unless others indicate otherwise and want to be recognized. Senator Dodd. Senator DODD. Thank you, Mr. Chair-man.
August 3, 1994 - Part 4
(15:10:17) Let me pick up on Senator Bond's point. I think we may agree here. I don't think it's a question, frankly, of Government. I think it's also true of the private sector and nonprofits. Very few people around this place make any decisions any longer without calling the ethics office; and my fear is what we're doing, the notion of personal responsibility in both public and private life is being relegated to the decisionmaking of somebody else, and if somebody else says it's OK, whether or not we think it is, it becomes permissible, and that becomes the standard by which we conduct our affairs. I think that's permeating our society, and I think it's dangerous, So I think that's the point Senator Bond was making, at least in the sense of governmental affairs, but I think it's also true in other aspects of life as well. 74 Second, I want to underscore the point Senator Sarbanes was making about these recusal decisions. Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell made the point earlier today in discussion with Secretary Bentsen that nobody wants to be responsible for anything and any way we can get out of making decisions, we do it. So 1 understand what your thinking was here, but we've got to put the brakes on this a bit or, you know, we're not going to have any decisions made. So I just want to underscore that point. I appreciate the fact you have, but as I look at this and look at your testimony today, I don't see any reason why you should have. But you've done it in my view, and I suspect it's done as the old CYA, and I won't explain what CYA is because we're on public airways and I think most of us know what we're talking about here. We just take ourselves out of the picture entirely and I worry about that. Third, I have no difficulty-it sounds to me that the contact with the President that-I just want you to reemphasize this point. It's your understanding, Mr. Ludwig, that the President of the United States asked you if it was proper for you to give him advice, not for the advice, Would you state again for us, because it's a very important point. It's been raised before. I think it needs to be emphasized. Are you clear about that? Mr. LUDWIG. Yes, sir, absolutely clear. The President asked me whether I could advise him, that is to say whether it would be permissible for me to advise him. My recollection is clear on this, and I don't think there's anything inappropriate in that. Senator DODD. I appreciate that. Now, with regard to these FOIA inquiries, you may have responded to this-but I thought I heard you say there was nothing to respond to in these inquiries. There was no information you had at the FDIC that would excuse me, that required response to The Baltimore Sun or The Washington Post. Mr. LUDWIG. I would guess, but I don't know, that the FDIC has responded to those inquiries. I've had nothing to do with them. Other than the fact that they were sent to me unsolicited, the only information or the only piece of paper I ever sent off was the inquiries themselves, not any documents, not any response to inquiries, just the public documents, the inquiries, which were, as I say, sent to me unsolicited. Whether the FDIC has responded to those inquiries or not, I don't rightly know. I think there's been some note in the paper that they have. Senator DODD. These were addressed to the FDIC, both of them were addressed to the FDIC? Mr. LUDWIG. Yes. They were both addressed to the FDIC. Senator DODD. There was no request in here that you pass these on to the White House. You made that decision on your own. Mr. LUDWIG. I made that decision on my own. Senator DODD. I'm sure you endeared yourself to the White House in retrospect by sending these along. Would you admit, and I say this with respect, this was a pretty dumb idea to send these to the White House? It's not a hard question. it Mr. LUDWIG. As I say, they were public documents that I didn't have anything to do with Senator BOXER. Would the Senator yield to me for a second? 75 Senator DODD. Yes. senator BOXER. It is my understanding that if an individual is the subject of a FOIA request, that that individual can find that out. So if an ordinary citizen can find out this information, does the President gives up the right to be an American citizen? Senator DODD. These weren't directed to the President. They were directed to the FDIC. Senator BOYER, The agency that gets the FOIA request can inform an American citizen if there has been such a request.
Five male Dancers in turbans
Five men in turbans stand in front of building possibly in Kutch or Rajasthan. Men dance with hand cymbals and which are decorated with a long tassel of red. They dance creating more interest in their movement their movements not always co-ordinating. Mostly always a wide frontal shot. END 01:05:34 Section of film removed for client transfer. Remainder of roll transferred later on this master tape.
Old couple in Garden
Old couple walking in flower garden, woman points at something. They go across as if looking for something. 01:06:10 Repeat take: Start from initial position. The couple stand to one side and the woman points at something. She starts to walk towards the direction where she pointed. The man follows. They both stand and watch. Section of film removed for client transfer. Remainder of roll transferred later on this tape.
Woman in Kitchen and Marionette
Woman in apron washes potatoes in kitchen sink and fills pot to cook them; gets approached by odd-looking marionette puppet (looking like a space alien with strings attached), who apparently tells her to add less water. Talk about cheesy... but fun. 01:07:09 CU container of salad greens, woman starts making salad, then turns on big boxy radio, dancing a little bit to the music. Shot shows hands and vegetables with wooden bowl. Pan to space alient puppet (marionette) dancing on stove. Camera pans again to woman's hands making salad
Kids Wrestling . Section...
Kid jumps and grabs the other kid from behind a bench. They both roll around on the bench wrestling without much violence. Clean cut blonde and in white T-shirts and jeans they seem to be foolin around. The first boy turns around and we see him smiling. 01:09:42 They enact the whole take again END 01:09:51 Section of film removed for client transfer.
Orchids
Vanda OrchidHonolulu in backyard
Orchids
Orchid Tree
Pond Lilies & Misc.
Pride of Barbados
Pond Lilies & Misc.
Cat-tails(Chenille)
Pond Lilies & Misc.
Miscellaneous Flowers
Pond Lilies & Misc.
Flowers
Pond Lilies & Misc.
Red Water lilyLong shot of pond
Pond Lilies & Misc
Single Red Pond Lilly
August 3, 1994 - Part 4
(15:15:06) Senator DODD. My point is, if you had to do it over again, would you send them down here? Mr. LUDWIG. I don't know, Senator. They were public documents. I had nothing to do with them. I want to emphasize that I checked with our counsel to make sure that they were public documents, and I'm not sure how I would Senator DODD. I'm not going to dwell on it, but it seems to me, the kind of transmissions of those things-lastly, I was intrigued going back to the inquiries that you made, and it sounded to me like you did the right thing calling various people to determine whether or not the questions, and inquiries to you were something you could respond to and you talked to a number of people. You mentioned you talked to Jean Hanson at the Treasury Department, and I'm particularly interested in that conversation. We've had a lot of talk up here the last several days, as you are no doubt aware, about Ms. Hanson. Now, as I understand it here, she seemed to have some reservations and cautioned you against giving the President advice on this matter. That's your testimony; is that not correct? Mr. LUDWIG. Yes, She had a cautionary note in her voice, as best I can recollect, and then suggested that I speak with Bernard Nussbaum, the Counsel to the President. Senator DODD. This was sometime between Christmas and New Year's 1993? Mr. LUDWIG. This was just prior to New Year's 1993. Senator DODD. Did Ms. Hanson say to you that at any point before I talk to you, I may have to check with someone here in the Treasury Department? Was there any reluctance on her part to discuss this issue with you? Mr. LUDWIG. As best I recollect, she didn't seem to know a great deal about the facts, Senator DODD. That was not my question. Was she reluctant in any way to discuss this matter with you? Mr. LUDWIG. It was such a brief conversation and really the import of which was to pass me on, more than anything else, to Mr. Nussbaum. Senator DODD. Did she seem reluctant to talk to Mr. Nussbaum? Did you get any indication she knew Mr. Nussbaum fairly well, that she was comfortable making that suggestion? Mr. LUDWIG. No. It was a very brief conversation, and I had a feeling she was uncertain as to who to speak with and passed me on to Bernard Nussbaum, that she said just to call him. Senator DODD. Mr. Chairman, thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bond. 76 Senator BOND. Just a couple quick follow-up questions. I was going over notes as you were talking. You mentioned having reviewed the testimony of Mr. Sloan; is that correct? Mr. I did not review the testimony of Mr. Sloan. I don It think I said that. Senator BOND. I wrote down, that you said you read the deposition of Mr. Sloan. Mr. LUDWIG. Oh, no, I never said I read the deposition of Mr. Sloan. I am aware that Mr. Sloan was deposed--either from the newspaper or- I'm not sure where-maybe it was because at my deposition, Counsel to the Majority or Minority inquired of me in respect of Mr. Sloan's recollection. I think that was it, But I certainly have never read Mr. Sloan's deposition or testimony or anything like that. Senator BOND. I just wanted to check on that. And one final point, when the President spoke with you briefly in that crowded room, do you recall him saying anything about a op-ed piece? Mr. LUDWIG. I don't recall that, sir. Senator BOND. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Shelby. Senator SHELBY. Mr. Ludwig, your current job now, and was when you were at Renaissance Weekend is, Comptroller of the Currency? Mr. LUDWIG. Yes. Senator SHELBY. As Comptroller of the Currency, you're the top regulator of the national banking system, are you not? Mr. LUDWIG. Yes, sir. Senator SHELBY. And before this, you were an active lawyer in Washington, DC dealing with banking regulation work, were you not? Mr. LUDWIG. Yes, sir, Senator SHELBY. Before you were nominated and confirmed for that? Mr. LUDWIG. Yes, sir, I practiced banking law and did some teaching in this area. Senator SHELBY. Adjunct professor. Mr. LUDWIG. Yes, that sort of thing. Senator SHELBY. Where did you teach? Mr. LUDWIG. I gave lectures at Harvard I Yale and Georgetown. Senator SHELBY, In regulatory law? Mr. LUDWIG. Banking regulatory matters. Senator SHELBY. Now, you knew the President of the United States. I'm not saying you knew him from-you've known him since you were 5 years old and so forth, but you went to Oxford with him and you went to Yale Law School with him. Mr. LUDWIG. Yes, sir, I did. Senator SHELBY. And you were involved, to some degree, in his presidential race. Mr. LUDWIG. I was, sir.