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August 3, 1994 - Part 2
(11:40:31) But I do not think the lines are clear enough on that. And I think the Office of Government Ethics makes a good point on that, and I think we ought to do a better job in defining that. And I think that is true not just for the law enforcement at Treasury, but also for every other Department. Senator KE RRY. The reason I ask it, Mr. Secretary is that at a later page of the report, page 10, it says, as a final note on the appearance issue, we should add that we recognize that having a public purpose for a disclosure does not preclude an employee from also having, as a purpose, the furtherance of a private interest. And as to Ms. Hanson, they found that she did not do anything with respect to a private interest. 34 But they also say in this report that it is unclear from the report what Mr. Altman's role in. the disclosure of September 29th may have been. And here we go to his memory about Ms. Hanson 7 and they specifically say that Ms. Hanson's memorandum-excuse me--we feel there is insufficient information to enable us to provide you with any further analysis of Mr. Altman's participation in this disclosure. Now that is why a very essential question for us here is Mr. Altman's relationship to Ms. Hanson, and Ms. Hanson's visit to the White House. And I just want to come back to it for a moment, if I can, so that we can analyze this other part of the report. You have talked earlier in your testimony about your office and the way you ran it. I recollect that you run a very tight ship, and I respect that. I think we all do. It is hard for me to imagine that your lawyer, the Counsel to the Treasury, would spontaneously contact the White House without some authorization from somebody or some notice to somebody, that she would just take it upon herself to go to the White House with a very unusual happening, a reference of a criminal referral mentioning the name of the President or Mrs. Clinton as a possible witness. I want to emphasize that. The word keeps getting thrown around here, criminal referral, Witness. And most Americans are not drawing that distinction. Can you help us with that, because we have really got to make some choice up here. Would she have gone, I mean, was she authorized, I do not want to ask your opinion, but was she authorized to contact the White House on her own in that kind of a situation? Secretary BENTSEN. Let me state that I have a better understanding of it just from what I have heard here this morning, because my understanding, I believe as Senator Dodd testified, that she went over for some other reason. And she was at the White House, and the occasion came up where she decided she could divulge that. Now that is what I was told. I did not know that before, and that makes it more easily understood. Senator KERRY. The evidence before the Committee, Mr. Secretary, is that she was directed. Well, there is conflicting evidence, but several people have indicated she was directed to call. She telephoned. The telephone logs indeed show that there was a call. They did not connect. And then she happened to be there a subsequent day and took advantage of that to relay the information she had intended to relay in the telephone call. But that she states she was doing this upon the specific instruction of Mr. Altman. Now the Committee's got to wrestle with this question. Would the lawyer for the Treasury have taken upon herself, this independent, or was she authorized to do this, or was this an unauthorized contact? Secretary BENTSEN. Let me say, Senator, that top officials in Treasury were often, often at the White House working with staff 35 at the White House and developed a relationship there. That it was not unusual for them to be there. I do not know any prohibition that would have been in place for her not to have done that. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Kerry, if you want to pursue that, 1 will yield you 2 minutes off my next round. Senator D'Amato's in agreement with doing that if you want to take a couple of minutes to finish this line of discussion.
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August 3, 1994 - Part 2
(11:45:12) Senator KERRY. I have a couple of questions that are tied into that line of questioning. I hope you understand. Secretary BENTSEN. I know what you are reaching for. Senator KERRY. I am just trying to understand how the lawyer for the Department would take. Clearly a reference in a criminal referral in any capacity is an unusual occurrence. Is that not fair to say? Secretary BENTSEN. Yes, I would certainly think so. Senator KERRY. Would you not want to be informed if your Department is being notified to this effect? In fact, the evidence says that according to Mr. Roelle, that she was instructed to call, among other people, you or your office to inform you. Secretary BENTSEN. I had worked very hard to build a wall around myself insofar as any case specific matter in the Resolution Trust, I did that because I did not want, in any way, to have violated the law. And that worked. Senator KERRY. I am not suggesting that you had any role in this. I know you did not. There is nothing that suggests you did. I understand that. All I am trying to say is, Mr. Secretary, the notion that if I am lawyer to somebody and information comes to me of the import of this kind of information, the notion that I would take it upon myself to just jump over to the White House, talk to the Counsel of the President of the United States and say to him, hey, by the way, is very hard for me to accept. Secretary BENTSEN. Let me tell you, Senator, you are more awe inspired than I am by those folks over there. Senator KERRY. I beg your pardon? I could not hear Secretary BENTSEN. You are more awe inspired than I am by those folks over there. Those folks are over there daily. Senator KERRY. That may well be. We do not get down there as often as you do. Secretary BENTSEN. Those folks were over there daily. Senator KERRY. This is what I want to understand. I am not arguing with you about it. You are saying to me that Ms. Hanson might have gone over there absolutely on her own on a daily basis with this kind of information? Secretary BENTSEN. Well she was over there often. No, not daily on that kind of information, but they were over there very often, and developed a working relationship there. Senator KERRY. But she was over there at the time on Waco, correct? Secretary BENTSEN. That is what I found out this morning. 36 Senator KERRY. Clearly, we know she was over there. Would she impart that kind of information without having first told you or Mr. Altman? Secretary BENTSEN. She certainly would without telling-would have done it, and could have done it without telling me, certainly, because once again, I was very much opposed to anything that got me in case specific matters in the Resolution Trust because the Congress has made it clear that I was not supposed to be in the oversight. Senator KERRY. Absolutely, I agree with that. And then the question would be whether or not, in your judgment, it would have been appropriate for her to go to the White House without having first checked with Mr. Altman? Secretary BENTSEN. I do not think she is precluded from that. Senator KERRY. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bennett, OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR BENNETT Senator BENNETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And welcome, Mr. Secretary. Secretary BENTSEN. Thank you, Senator. Senator BENNETT. I will just make a quick comment. I may be the only Member of this Committee who has served in an Administration, and yes, we were at the White House on a regular basis and yes, at my level, and it was functioning at an Assistant Secretary level. I would clearly not have talked to the Counsel of the President without the Under Secretary, as he was then designated, telling me it was OK. I would have talked to my normal contacts, but the Counsel of the President to an Assistant Secretary, which is the level at which she operates, is kind of a forbidding figure and she testified, very specifically, I do not know Bernie Nussbaum, and I would not presume to call Bernie Nussbaum unless somebody told me. So that has been her testimony, and I happen to resonate with that. Now Mr. Secretary, in your testimony, you asked us for recommendations that we might think appropriate, and I have one for you. I would suggest that you send the name of Jack Ryan to this Committee for confirmation immediately. We have had testimony here that he will now preside over the RTC until its dissolution.
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