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July 20, 1995 - Part 1
(10:10:48) Mr. HINES. Yes, it was. He identified himself as a Deputy Chief of Staff for the White House. Mr, CHERTOFF, Now, can you give us some of the reasons in your mind that it was necessary to have police officials look in the office the next day? What kinds of things would be relevant? Mr. HINES. We would want to find out if there's a suicide note. We would want to find out if there's anything there that he might have left that would give him a reason or show his state of mind. We'd want to check his records and see if he had financial problems, which is the reason many people commit suicide, items like this. Mr. CHERTOFF. Would you want to know whether he was aware of or involved in any way with some wrongdoing? Mr. HINES. We would if we found that out, yes. Mr. CHERTOFF. You would be looking for something that would be evidence of motive? Mr. HINES. We would. Any kind of evidence that might be motive or might lead us to believe that would contribute to his suicide. Mr. CHERTOFF. Is it fair to say-again, in thinking about the kinds of documents that would be in an office-that you would be particularly interested in things in his own handwriting? Mr. HINES. Things of his own handwriting would be of interest to us. Mr. CHERTOFF. As opposed to, let's say, magazines or public documents or books? Mr. HINES. True. Mr. CHERTOFF. So, in your experience and your mind, in conducting a review of what was in the office, things in his own handwriting would be documents that would get particular attention? Mr. HINES. It would be if it indicated that he was having problems in some way. Mr. CHERTOFF. At any point in time in your conversation with Mr. Burton, did he indicate to you any knowledge that anyone was going to be entering the off-ice of Mr. Foster that night? Mr. HINES. No, he did not. Mr. CHERTOFF. Did you have any information from any other source that night, on July 20, 1993, that someone either had been in Mr. Foster's office to look for a note or that someone wanted to go into Mr. Foster's office to look for a note? Mr. HINES. No, I did not. Mr. CHERTOFF. I take it that you would not have wanted a search of the office to occur that night Without a Park Police officer being present? Mr. HINES. That's true. 154 Mr. CHERTOFF. Did there come a time let me direct this first to Sergeant Braun-that you eventually did learn on the night of July 20, 1993, somebody was in the office of Mr. Foster, one or more people looking for a suicide note? Ms. BRAUN. It wasn't until some time afterwards. Mr. CHERTOFF. Do you recall how you learned about it? Ms. BRAUN. No, I don't. Mr. CHERTOFF. What about you, Detective Rolla? Mr. ROLLA. I think I read it in the newspaper, Mr. CHERTOFF. What about you, Major Hines? Mr. HINES. I read it in the newspaper. Mr. CHERTOFF. Were any of you there at the White House the next day, on July 21, 1993, which was a Wednesday? Ms. BRAUN. I was not. Mr. ROLLA. I was not. Mr. HINES. I was there. Mr. CHERTOFF. At that point in time, Major Hines, was a request made by the Park Police to enter Mr. Foster's office to look for a note? Mr. HINES. I was there at 10 a.m. with Chief Robert E. Langston to brief the White House staff on what we knew about Mr. Foster's suicide at that time. During the briefing, I did request that we would want to enter his office, and I explained, basically, the investigative process that we would go through to all those present. I did say that we would need to look into his office, Mr. CHERTOFF. Do you remember who was present during that meeting? Mr. HINES. There were several people present that I remember. The Chief Counsel was present, Mr. Nussbaum. Mr. Hubbell was present. Mr. Kennedy was present and Mr. Watkins was present. Mr. CHERTOFF. In that conversation with them that morning, did they say you could go into the office that day and look for any relevant documents? Mr. HINES. My impression was that they were going to cooperate with us in any way they could during our investigation. Mr. CHERTOFF. During the balance of that day, did any Park Policeman set foot in Mr. Foster's office? Mr. HINES. It's my understanding that no Park Policeman set foot in his office. Mr. CHERTOFF. Let me keep your attention focused on that meeting of July 21, 1993 with Mr. Watkins and Mr. Nussbaum. In that meeting, did anybody indicate to you that morning that people had been through Mr. Foster's office the previous night shortly before midnight? Mr. HINES. Not to my knowledge. Mr. CHERTOFF. When did you first learn that had occurred? Mr. HINES. Repeat the question, Mr. CHERTOFF. When did you first learn that had occurred, that people had been in the office shortly before midnight? Mr. HINES. When I read it in the paper. Mr. CHERTOFF. I think I have no further questions. Mr. Chair- man, if I could return my time. The CHAIRMAN. Sergeant Braun, let me go over the night of July, 20, 1993, just as it relates to one thing that you've testified to. 155 You're saying there came a point in time when you spoke to Mr. Watkins, who was in charge of management and administration of the White House, and told him of the necessity to secure or seal off the office; is that correct?
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July 20, 1995 - Part 1
(10:15:38) Ms. BRAUN. That's correct. The CHAIRMAN. Do you recall how you said that, to the best of your recollection? Ms. BRAUN. To the best of my recollection, I explained to him that the office would need to be closed up so that we could go ,through it the next day to look for a suicide note or evidence that would confirm the suicide, The CHAIRMAN. How did he respond to you? Ms. BRAUN. He seemed to understand what I was asking him and, like I said earlier, I do not remember what his exact words were, but he acknowledged that it would be done. The CHAIRMAN. Now, Detective Rolla, you testified while you did not hear the conversation, that Sergeant Braun thereafter, as you were leaving or as you left or when you left, indicated to you the nature of her request to Mr. Watkins; is that correct? Mr. ROLLA. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. She had asked him to seal off the office; is that correct? Mr. ROLLA. She asked him to secure the office because we knew the situation was that we weren't going to be able to be in there that night. Just to have things maintained, we wanted it secured until such time as higher officials could get in there and things could be gone through properly. The CHAIRMAN. Major Hines, the next morning when you had a briefing, who attended? Was Mr. Hubbell there? Mr. HINES. Mr. Hubbell was there. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Nussbaum? Mr. HINES. Mr. Nussbaum was there; Mr. Watkins was there. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Watkins was there? Mr. HINES. Mr. Kennedy was there and Mr. Stephanopoulos was there. There were several other people there that I don't remember. The CHAIRMAN. Those are the people that you specifically recall? Mr. HINES. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. In addition to your advising them as to what you believed to be a suicide, from the initial investigation until you reached that conclusion, was there any other discussion about sealing the office or when you would be given access to the office? Mr. HINES. There was no discussion of when we would be given access to the office. The CHAIRMAN. Do you know when the Park Police first had access to the office? Mr. HINES. It is my understanding on July 22, 1993, 1 believe we first had access to the office. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Chertoff has a question. Mr. CHERTOFF. Something just came to mind; I want to be quite clear on it. Sergeant Braun, on the night of July 20, 1993, you left the Foster residence after the President had arrived? Ms. BRAUN. That's correct. Mr. CHERTOFF. That's when you had your conversation right before you left, with Mr. Watkins? 156 There's some independent evidence in the record that the President arrived around 11 p.m. I want to be quite clear that at that point in time when you talked to Mr. Watkins, he did not tell you that he had already made arrangements to have someone go into Mr. Foster's office and look for a note. Ms. BRAUN. No, he did not tell me that. Mr. CHERTOFF. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Grams. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR ROD GRAMS Senator GRAMS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I know we have a short span of time that we're talking about and some of these questions might be similar in nature but , again, I'd like to go back over and to reiterate some of those. Sergeant Braun, why would you consider Vince Foster's office in any way connected-it wasn't a crime scene--with the investigation? How important was that office to your thoughts right after' the incident? Ms. BRAUN. I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say "right after." Senator GRAMS. As you were following the course of your investigation, from the crime scene itself to the thoughts that Vince Fos". ter's office should also be sealed to preserve its integrity as far as the investigation would go. Ms. BRAUN. As you're going through a scene like this, you're going through a particular process. When you initially arrive, your concerns are with the immediate scene, and so we dealt with the immediate scene. Then I dealt with the car: I thought if we didn't find a note at the scene, then the car would be, possibly, the next logical place. Having not found a note, then, in the car, the family becomes the next logical step in trying to confirm Mr. Foster's depression or state of mind, We didn't get any assistance with that. When we spoke with the family, there was no indication from the family that he had been suffering from depression, The only thing left, then, to examine was his place of business. Senator GRAMS. The office was important in your estimation---- Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Senator GRAMS. -immediately and early on in this investigation. Could you go into a little more detail about what you're trained to do when you approach such a crime scene?
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July 20, 1995 - Part 1
(10:20:41) Ms. BRAUN. How much detail? Senator GRAMS. To secure the area at the crime scene itself and,, why your concerns were to seal the office. Ms. BRAUN. Initially, at the crime scene, you want to preserve any evidence that's there, and so what I did in order to do that Was to request that the main gate to the fort there be closed and that would prevent any other people from coming into the area to con- taminate it. Senator GRAMS. You wanted to seal that part of the investigation? Ms. BRAUN. Right. Once that was all taken care of, we had processed the area and gotten whatever evidence we felt we needed from that area we left that to go to the family to do the death noti- 157 fication. From there, that becomes your more investigative end of it, more interviews with the family. If Mr. Foster had been seeing a psychiatrist, we would have wanted to try to speak with the psychiatrist just to try to confirm any information they may have been able to provide within the realm of what they could tell us. Then, having not been able to get any information as to his state of mind from the family, no knowledge that they had found a note or anything, his place of business becomes the next logical place to go, as I said earlier. What we wanted to do was to try to preserve it in the condition that he left it. Senator GRAMS. You didn't want the scene, basically, contaminated, either unintentionally or intentionally? Ms. BRAUN. Right. Senator GRAMS. You would consider, then, that his office would be a very important part of this investigation, and that's why you made the request early on, as already has been noted, to Mr. Watkins as you arrived at the home, asking him to make sure that Ms. BRAUN. That request was not made when we arrived. That was as we left. Senator GRAMS. As you left. To me, it means that if you asked that the office be sealed, that you would want it locked; is that correct? Ms. BRAUN. Yes. Senator GRAMS. Now, you previously testified that there might be evidence in the office related to the decedent's state of mind? Ms. BRAUN. Right. Senator GRAMS. For example, you might be looking for what? You said a suicide note? Ms. BRAUN. A suicide note, his appointment book indicating that he had an appointment with a psychiatrist or psychologist, a journal that indicates I've had umpty-nine bad days and I don't know if I can take it anymore, anything that would have helped show that he was really down in. the dumps. Senator GRAMS. When you found out during your investigation that this involved a lawyer's office, was there any other special precautions that you might have taken, as we've heard testimony on attorney-client privilege and things like that, but especially for a high-ranking Member of the Administration, would there have been additional precautions you would have asked for? Ms. BRAUN. I just felt that I was dealing with the people who could take care of my request, and I didn't feel that anything other than trying to prevent people from going into the off-ice was all that was necessary. Senator GRAMS. Just to get the time again, you said that you made the request to Mr. Watkins about scaling the office as you left Ms. BRAUN. Right. Senator GRAMS. -the home. So you had looked at the crime scene. You checked the car. From the car, the home was the next logical spot, and as you left the scene, which was about 10:45 in your estimation, you requested to Mr. Watkins that he seal the office? Ms. BRAUN, Right. 158 Senator GRAMS. At that time he did not say his earlier question, that he might have already called someone. Did you notice him calling anyone while lie was at the home with you? In Ms. BRAUN. Everybody was on the phone. They were the phone was getting passed around. It was in constant use, Senator GRAMS. But he did not tell you, again, that he had asked someone from the White House Administration to go to Vince Fos- ter's office? The CHAIRMAN. Senator, I'm wondering-for purposes of clarification, Detective, you testified the President got there about 11 p.m., and you left shortly thereafter; and it was as you were leaving, so it would have been closer to 11 p.m.? Ms. BRAUN. That's correct. I think we ended up leaving closer to 11:10. 1 think the President got there just before 11 p.m. The CHAIRMAN. It would have been between 11 and 11:10 when you spoke to Mr. Watkins and made your request known? Ms. BRAUN. That's correct. The CHAIRMAN. Just for clarification. Senator GRAMS. For clarification, we noticed in yesterday's testimony that the security-the doors were opened at 10:42, which would have been at least 15 minutes before you had talked to Mr. Watkins. Mr. Hines, what would you consider the definition to be if someone was asked to seal an office? What would you expect to happen after that request was made? Mr. HINES. I would expect when we said seal the office, that the office would be closed, it would be secured and no one would be entering the office. Senator GRAMS. According to the testimony or in conversations with Sergeant Braun, did you also assume that request had been made early on? Mr. HINES. Yes, I had.
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July 20, 1995 - Part 1
(10:25:46) Senator GRAMS. Did you expect or assume that those steps had been taken? Mr. HINES. I assumed that those steps had been taken. Senator GRAMS. Did you in any way take any steps to follow up on that to make sure the office had been sealed yourself? Mr. HINES. No, outside of my conversations with Mr. Burton. That's the only thing I did, Senator GRAMS. So you were satisfied that those steps had been taken in those conversations that you had? Mr. HINES. Yes, I was. Senator GRAMS. Mr. Rolla, do you remember any thoughts You had on the matter? Do you recall discussing the need to seal the office with Sergeant Braun? Mr. ROLLA. Yes, I did. Senator GRAMS. What did you talk about, or how did you come to that conclusion as well? Mr. ROLLA. First, let me say that there's no legal authority for us to tell them to seal and lock that office. Senator GRAMS. Whose? Mr. ROLLA. There's no legal authority. Senator GRAMS. To tell who? 159 Mr. ROLLA. This was based on cooperation, which we would normally get in a death investigation. If it was a businessman or whatever, and we had to go to his office, we would ask them to please keep it the way it was, we would like to come over there, They can be there while we look through it. We're not looking for national secrets or corporate secrets. We're looking for something that says goodbye, cruel world, or something to determine the state of mind. That's what we're looking for. That's what my thought was. When we asked-we talked about it later, and she mentioned right before we left that she had told David Watkins, asked him if he could seal the office, and he said yes, and that was basically it, We figured we were getting cooperation from a high-level Government official. Senator GRAMS. You said you had no legal authority, but what you were doing was making a suggestion or what you would consider something that was a normal course of action? Mr. ROLLA. It was a normal course of action. Like I said, we wanted to keep it preserved, preserve it the way it was, if at all possible, so we could go in there and find things the way they were. Senator GRAMS. So, basically, trying to do your job. Mr. ROLLA. Exactly, Senator GRAMS. You expected that would be the same type of action that others would be taking. Mr. ROLLA. The question was asked that the office be sealed, and the answer was that it would be. If they came up with a reason it couldn't be, that would be one thing. We felt we had cooperation that it- would be done. That's all. Senator GRAMS. I find it similar that you had the same ideas that the office would be one part that should be included in this investigation. Mr. Hubbell, one of his first thoughts was to make sure that the office was sealed, to protect the integrity of the office so it wouldn't be contaminated, and others should have been thinking along those same lines. Evidently, for one reason or another, those steps were not taken or followed. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Senator Sarbanes. Senator SARBANES. Mr. Ben-Veniste, Mr. BEN-VENISTE, Thank you, Senator. Detective Rolla, what does your training tell you to do in a circumstance or a situation where you have come upon a violent death by apparent gunshot in terms of control of the area? Mr. ROLLA. On any crime scene you're going to seal off a certain section of the area large enough to search and keep individuals out of that area. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. So you want to secure the area and you want to take control of the situation? Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. That's what your training teaches you? Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. Mr. BEN-VENISTE, Now, you made every effort, as we have heard today, to take control of the situation at Fort Marcy Park to ensure 160 that the scene of Mr. Foster's death was not disturbed. Is that so, sir? Mr. ROLLA. That's correct. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. On the basis of your review of the evidence at Fort Marcy Park, everything that you saw was consistent with an apparent suicide; is that correct? Mr. ROLLA. That's correct, keeping an open mind to other options based on the physical evidence that was in front of us, it was all leading right to a suicide. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. In fact, later that evening you and Sergeant Braun had advised the Foster family that this was an apparent suicide?