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July 19, 1995 - Part 2
(11:50:44) Senator MURRAY. How did you feel when they began to ask her questions? This is a woman who obviously had just learned of her husband's suicide. How did that make you feel? Mr. HUBBELL. I guess, I guess you understand it, but it is very invasive at that time. I think you don't resent it, but you just, it sure seems like a hard thing to do, especially in this case it wasthey were saying it was a suicide. I would have hoped they could, if they needed to ask her questions, they could do it at a different time. But they did, and nobody got angry with them or anything like that, but it was just-you'd like to share your grief only with the people you are close to at that time, Senator MURRAY. I would assume that there's a feeling of protecting somebody from having to live through questioning at that time. They've already received enough Mr. HUBBELL. Yes, there is, and you are also--we were, I think, naturally concerned about Lisa's state of mind and her health in such a traumatic time. We were trying to get a doctor to come and help her. Senator MURRAY. Are you aware of allegations that you pushed Cheryl Braun out of the way in the Foster home? Mr. HUBBELL. I found out about them when I watched the hearings last year. That was the first time I'd ever heard that. Senator MURRAY. Mr. Chairman, for the record, at this point 1 would like to submit a question I asked Cheryl Braun last year during these hearings, and her answer. It specifically is: Question: So, from your perspective, do you feel that anyone was trying to obstruct you in trying to get information that night? Answer: No, I would not say they were. I would like that on the record at this time and I would yield the rest of my time to counsel. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Thank you, Senator Murray. Mr. Hubbell, I'd like to turn back to some questions that Senator Hatch addressed to you with respect to issues of whether White House Counsel may, under certain circumstances, act either as per- sonal attorney or have in its possession the personal, financial or I other records of the President of the United States. In this regard, let me ask you if you can tell us who Roger Adams was in July 1993? Mr. HUBBELL. Roger Adams, I believe, was a Deputy in the Criminal Division at the Justice Department and I think, by that time, had been detailed to be on the staff of Phil Heymann, the Deputy Attorney General. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Did you know that Mr. Adams was one of the two Justice Department high-ranking individuals who were present during the search of Mr. Foster's office on July 22, 1993? Mr. HUBBELL. I think I learned that when I returned to Washington from Little Rock. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Did you know, sir, that Mr. Adams' responsibility at the Justice Department, among others, was to give ethics advice to lawyers in the Criminal Division at the Department of ,Justice? Mr. HUBBELL. I was not aware of that. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. That is contained in his deposition at page 14, Mr. Chairman. 116 Now, let me read, if I might, from Mr. Adams' deposition and see. whether you agree with this position. At page 194 Mr. Adams says: I might say that it doesnt surprise me a bit. There's a thin line between public business and private business. It does not offend me at all that the Counsel or Dep- uty Counsel to the President does work on some personal things of the President and First Lady. And then during the search, obviously, Bernie Nussbaum said that these are certain things that Vince Foster has been working on for the Presidentand the First Lady.
July 19, 1995 - Part 2
(12:10:29) Bernie Nussbaum was in the position of protecting a client, the President, and protecting a friend, Vince Foster. Is it fair to say that he did those things very conscientiously, but perhaps in terms of public relations or handling a public office, he may not have been as adroit as he might have been? Mr. HUBBELL. I want to say, first, that I have the greatest respect for Bernie's legal abilities and his loyalty. He became, in 6 months, one of Vince's closest friends. As I said, Bernie and Vince both referred to each other as brothers. We love Bernie; he loved Bernie, and Bernie loved Vince. So I hope as we think about Bernie's actions we don't forget that part of Bernie. He is a very lovable man himself. I think Bernie himself will say that he's not the best PR for himself. He's a protecting lawyer as he has been trained to do for many years. Bernie is an open person. I mean, Bernie tends to go in one direction, but a lot of times I have seen Vince or myself sit down and say now, Bernie, let's talk about this, and Bernie is open to suggestions. But I don't think, I hate to hear the word that Bernie is becoming a heavy because I think Bernie always did what he thought was the best thing to do. I know I have made mistakes, and I can't judge. It's this Committee's job to say whether Bernie made a mistake or not. But I'd never doubt his heart. Senator SIMON. As far as doing anything-and some mistakes were made-we didn't anticipate we were going to be here Mr. HUBBELL. No. Senator SIMON. -in this hearing. As far as doing anything ethically or legally improper, you're not aware of Bernie Nussbaum doing anything like that? Mr. HUBBELL. No, and I think Phil would have told me, Phil Heymann would have told me if he felt that way. Senator SIMON. Then you-in your deposition on July 13th, you are asked: Question: Now, I think as a point of reference, the question was really limited ill time from the time of the election up to and including Mr. Foster's death. Let me ask you if before that time the President or Mrs. Clinton, then Mr- and Mrs. Clinton, expressed to you any concerns about Whitewater Development Corporation, Madison Guaranty or the McDougals? Then you, as a partial answer here, say: Answer: I was aware that Mrs. Clinton wanted to get the records assembled, fig- ure out what had happened with Whitewater and get it resolved, 121 Did Mrs. Clinton at any point ask you to do anything improper in connection with Whitewater? Mr. HUBBELL. Oh, absolutely not. She never would do anything like that. Senator SIMON. Did Mrs. Clinton at any point ask you to do anything improper on anything else? Mr. HUBBELL. No, she did not. Senator SIMON. Did President Clinton ask you at any point to do anything improper on Whitewater? Mr. HUBBELL. No, Senator. Senator SIMON. Did President Clinton ask you to do anything im- proper on anything else? Mr. HUBBELL. No, Senator, and he never would. Senator SIMON. Is it conceivable in your mind that either President Clinton or Mrs. Clinton would have asked Vince Foster to do anything improper? Mr. HUBBELL. It is inconceivable that they would ask Vince to do anything improper. Senator SIMON. If-because you were, as you've mentioned, a close friend of Vince Foster's-if either one had suggested something improper, you think Vince Foster would have told you about it? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes, I believe Vince would have got on the phone with me immediately and said I need to talk to you about this, and I would know about it. But it's just inconceivable to me that they would have ever done that.
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July 19, 1995 - Part 2
(11:55:15) He went on to say in response to this question at page 199: Question: You indicated that you were not surprised a bit that there would be both public and private files in Mr. Foster's office; isn't that so? Answer: I think what I said was I was not surprised a bit that he would be working on both public legal matters and personal legal matters of the President. Question: And this is on the basis of your understanding of the practical function of the White House Counsel's Office? Answer: Yes. Now, does that comport with your understanding of the function of White House Counsel? Mr. HUBBELL. It does. I think I've said, I believe, the President is in a unique position. I find it-it would almost be impossible for White House Counsel not to have some involvement in some personal matters for the President. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. With respect to personal financial matters, could you explain, with respect to the official requirements of the Counsel's Office in assisting the President with various financial disclosure and other forms, why it would be likely that such personal financial matters and documents might be found in the Office of Counsel to the President? Mr, HUBBELL. There are, as I think everybody knows, a lot of disclosure forms that have to be filed by governmental officials, and you want to make sure that those are done appropriately and properly. I don't know of any person in the world who is more scrutinized than the President of the United States, whether it's a Republican or a Democrat. Everything that-any public form, any filing is going to be gone over with a fine-tooth comb. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. So, to bring closure on this particular issue, Mr. Adams was the individual at the Justice Department who is a senior person charged with providing ethics advice to lawyers at the Justice Department, essentially a lawyer teaching lawyers their ethical responsibility. Mr. Adams was a person, one of two, along with Mr. Margolis, who had been sent by Deputy Attorney General Philip Heymann to the Counsel's Office to participate in the search, and it was Mr. Adams' view that it did not surprise him a bit that personal financial records were in Vincent Foster's file. Mr. HUBBELL. Doesn't surprise me, either. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. I have nothing further at this time, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Faircloth. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Hubbell, to just go back very briefly to the Eastern Shore weekend and then move on from that, why did you feel compelled to spend the weekend with Mr. Foster? You appeared very much to want to spend that weekend with him because of some shuffling of arrangements. Would you mind telling me why? Was there any special reason you wanted to? 117 Mr. HUBBELL. Vince and Lisa are my very, very good friends, and it was a wonderful place that we had been invited to be at. It had a tennis court, it had a swimming pool, the lake or the river is just wonderful, and I wanted to share that weekend with my good friend and relax. Our host, I believe it's-the property is actually owned by Carolyn's father. There were other guests; one was a tennis coach and he gave lessons to both Lisa and my wife. Senator FAIRCLOTH. I thank you. Mr. Hubbell, Vince Foster was a lifelong friend of President Clinton's. I believe you testified they were in kindergarten together. Mr. Foster worked closely with Hillary Clinton at the Rose Law Firm and has been referred to as her mentor at the firm. Would you say that Mr. Foster had a very special relationship with the Clintons? Mr. HUBBELL. He was a very close friend with both Mr. and Mrs. Clinton- President and Mrs. Clinton. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Now, moving to the Monday evening following the weekend we referred to, you and the President were going to watch a movie in the White House, and the President called Vince Foster in his office to invite him to come join you in watching the movie; is that correct?
July 19, 1995 - Part 2
(12:00:19) Mr. HUBBELL, I don't believe I was there when he invited Vince, but I believe he called him, and-I might have been there then. But I did watch a movie with the President that evening. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Did you discuss Vince Foster that evening with the President? Was he discussed? Mr. HUBBELL. I don't have any memory of that. It is certainly possible because it was supposed to be Vince and Bruce and the President and I. But I'll be honest, I only remember what the movie was. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Did you specifically ask the President to call Vince Foster to come to view the movie? Mr. HUBBELL. No, I did not. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Were you surprised when Mr. Foster refused the President's invitation to come over to the White House? Mr. HUBBELL. I was not surprised at that. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Was that unusual? I would have thought that, normally, when the President calls, you come. Mr. HUBBELL. It was unusual, but I was not surprised, say, as opposed to a Friday night or a weekend. It was a Monday night, and it was an unusual circumstance. It wasn't like there were a whole lot of people there to watch a movie. It was just a few of us. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Shortly before his death, did Mr. Foster ever confide in you any strain in his relationship or any falling out with the Clintons? Mr. HUBBELL. No, Senator. Senator FAIRCLOTH. He did not. OK. Mr. Hubbell, as you know, Betsey Wright served as Bill Clinton's Chief of Staff when he was Governor of Arkansas from 1983 to 1989. Betsey Wright is one of the most loyal and trusted friends of Bill, Shortly after her good friend Bill Clinton was elected President, Betsey Wright moved to Washington and joined a high-priced Washington lobbying firm. Mr. Hubbell, you had in your possession at the Rose Law Firm files labeled Madison and Whitewater that were collectively known as the Betsey files. You testified yesterday that you brought those 118 files with you to Washington, and you kept them at your house. Did Vince Foster ever review those files known as the Betsey files? Mr. HUBBELL. No, he did not. Ile was aware they were in my house, but Ile never reviewed them. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Mr, Hubbell, what documents were in those files that related specifically to the Whitewater Land Development Corporation or to Madison Guaranty? Mr. HUBBELL. I did not review those files in detail. I do know that in those files were drafts of accounting reports that Jim Lyons had done during the campaign, and I believe there were some newspaper articles and questions submitted by Mr. Gerth. Those are the things that I remember were in the files, Senator FAIRCLOTH. Was there anything in those files dealing with the First Lady's commodity trades in which she converted a $1,000 investment to a $100,000 profit? Was there anything dealing with that? Mr. HUBBELL. In the campaign files, I do not know, sir. Senator FAIRCLOTH. -in these so-called Betsey files, the Madison and Whitewater files? Mr. HUBBELL. Maybe I can help you, Senator. There were more than Madison files collected by the campaign that were in my house. There were files on a number of issues. Included in those files was a file labeled Madison/Whitewater, I believe. In the Madison/Whitewater file I don't believe there was anything to do with commodities trading. I don't know if in the other boxes there was a file regarding commodities trading or not. I just don't know. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Did Mrs. Clinton or any of her representatives ever make a request for any of the so-called Betsey files or these files? Mr. HUBBELL. There was, at one time, a request for one file, I went to the files, retrieved them and delivered them to Mrs. Clinton's office. Senator FAIRCLOTH. What request was that file? Mr. HUBBELL. If you recall, Senator, in June 1993 there was a question raised in Parade Magazine whether the President had a half brother that had not been-he didn't know about. So they asked me to go to the file, and there was a file on the genealogy of the President's natural father, and that's the file I delivered to the Clintons, Mrs. Clinton's office. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Why did the Clintons want to keep these files in a chain of custody with lawyers only?
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July 19, 1995 - Part 2
(12:05:32) Mr. HUBBELL. I can only speak for me as one of the lawyers who was advising the transition. There were already lawsuits being filed against Betsey and the Clintons that could be used as a fishing expedition for personal files of the Clintons. We wanted, to the extent those files contained attorney-client privileged materials, to protect that privilege and keep it in a chain of custody. That was my thinking, Senator. I can't speak for the other lawyers who were involved, Senator FAIRCLOTH. Did you have any discussion at any time with the President or the First Lady or anyone else relating to the transfer of these files? 119 Mr. HUBBELL. I never had a discussion with the President or the First Lady about the files other than that I had taken them into my possession. I told the President that, Senator FAIRCLOTH. Yesterday I believe you testified that David Kendall came to your house to get the so-called Betsey riles. I believe earlier you said that you took the Betsey files to David Kendall. Would you clarify how the Betsey files got to David Kendall? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes, I will. Once David was hired, I met with David. I did bring to him a few of the files that he asked for prior to that meeting. So I did deliver to David, on that day that I had a meeting with David, a few files. That Saturday David came with an employee of Williams & Connolly and removed all of the files from my house with me. Senator FAIRCLOTH. So you delivered some and then he came and Mr. HUBBELL. I delivered a stack that may have been a couple of inches high of files that he had asked about, and then that weekend he came and got the Senator FAIRCLOTH. Got the remainder? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes, Senator FAIRCLOTH. Mr. Hubbell, in your deposition you said that Jim Blair was helping to, and I quote, "wrap up Whitewater," Now, Jim Blair is General Counsel for Tyson Foods and, as you testified yesterday, one of the closest friends of the Clintons. Hillary Clinton has publicly stated that Jim Blair advised her on her commodity trades which resulted in her $100,000 profit. Jim Blair even spent the night of President Clinton's inauguration at the White House. Mr. Hubbell, why was Jim Blair involved in wrapping up the Whitewater deal? Mr. HUBBELL. Jim assisted in the campaign, as did his wife, and one of the issues that he worked on was Whitewater. He had volunteered, I believe, to negotiate the transfer of the Clintons' interest in Whitewater. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Is that what we mean by "wrapping up Whitewater"? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes, I believe the thought was that they would try to transfer it to Mr. McDougal and end the relationship. Senator FAIRCLOTH. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sarbanes. Senator MURRAY. Mr. Chairman, may I just ask a question on scope, just for my clarification? Is the commodities trading issue within the scope of this Committee? The CHAIRMAN. We are not looking into the commodities matter. We are looking into only those matters that are touched upon in the resolution and/or that come in as a related matter. I don't think the Senator was looking to go into that, but certainly there is nothing that precludes one from mentioning areas. To go into it, to examine it, that is not the scope of this Committee, nor do we intend to go into it, That certainly doesn't preclude somebody from identifying by saying so-and-so who was involved in X, Y and Z, because it is a complex picture, so Members will, at times, have the ability to do that. We are not going to look into the commodities matter. 120 Senator Sarbanes. Senator SARBANES. I yield to Senator Simon. I should say the scope is very carefully spelled out in the resolution that was passed by the Senate and does not encompass that particular subject. Senator Simon. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR PAUL SIMON Senator SIMON. Thank you, Senator Sarbanes and Mr. Chairman. The good news, Mr. Hubbell, is you are getting toward the end. There's just a few summarizing questions. First, it's fairly clear that Bernie Nussbaum is developing into a heavy in this whole question period. You have testified that he was like a brother to Vince Foster, that he was a pallbearer at the funeral.
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July 19, 1995 - Part 2
(12:15:21) Senator SIMON. Finally-and then I will yield some time to our counsel if anything remains-you have testified that he was worried about the travelsituation. At one point you say in your deposition, "He seems to have blown it out of proportion." At another point you say: He was upset about, you know, The Wall Street Journal, the question mark and the paper and the editorials, And, after I had gone through four or five, you know, I had gotten to the point where I was joking about them. I was trying to get him not to be upset about them. He was upset about the travel situation. Did he at any point indicate to you that he was upset about the Whitewater situation? Mr. HUBBELL. Vince never raised with me Whitewater as a concern. He never raised it. He did raise the Travel Office. He did raise other issues, but Whitewater was never mentioned. Senator SIMON. I thank you. I yield the balance of my time. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Thank you, Senator Simon. Mr. Hubbell, I'd like to pursue some questions put to you by Senator Hatch earlier with respect to privilege and waiver of privilege. The question of waiver of privilege has come up, and I would like it if you could explain what you understand occurs if someone takes privileged matters, "someone" being an attorney, and discloses just a part of that in terms of whether there can be an argument that having done so, hecan no longer claim privilege for the balance of the material? Mr. HUBBELL. My understanding is based on practicing in Arkansas, again, I have to tell you, and that is that there can be, under some circumstances, a limited disclosure and you don't waive the privilege. On the other basis, there can he inadvertent disclo- 122 sure and you do waive the privilege, but it usually relates to the issue. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. It relates to the type of proceeding, if you're in a court proceeding, and whether there is a court order or written agreement with respect to a limited waiver; is that what you are Mr. HUBBELL. That's correct. Usually it's very difficult to talk about it in these terms because my experience, and I think most people's experience, is your dealing with discovery in a court proceeding where there are pretty straightforward rules and precedent. I'm hesitant to be an expert when I don't know if there is any precedent out there at all when it relates to executive privilege or attorney-client privilege and this Committee. I just, I-again, I refer everybody to the best lawyer I know on these issues, and that's Walter Dellinger. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. I'm sure Mr. Dellinger appreciates that spot, and the comments you made are well deserved. With respect to the practice of law in New York, I think you would be probably the first to say that an inadvertent or partial waiver of the privilege might be seized upon by others as waiving the entire privilege in any given situation. Mr. HUBBELL. I hate to admit this, but even in Arkansas I've seen some lawyers jump on an inadvertent or partial disclosure and claim total waiver of the privilege. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. So, when Bernie Nussbaum had put on his New York litigator's hat, in your view, this might be one of the things he was concerned about? Mr. HUBBELL. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Now, you were responsible for the matters in the Civil Division of the Justice Department; is that correct? Not the Criminal Division? Mr. HUBBELL. That's correct, although the Civil Divisions, I have to be candid, each have a criminal component. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. With respect to-I see my time is up. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That's all right. The CHAIRMAN. If counsel wants to conclude, I'll let you do that. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. No, I'm finished. That's fine. The CHAIRMAN. OK. Mr. Hubbell, I think one of the questions was put to you by Senator Simon about whether or not you discussed with Vince Foster any of his concerns over White- water, and you said no. Yet before you indicated there were discussions with respect to Whitewater, so you don't really mean that he had never spoken to you about Whitewater concerns? Mr. HUBBELL. I hope I did not convey that we never talked about Whitewater. The CHAIRMAN. That's the impression Mr. HUBBELL. I didn't mean to. The CHAIRMAN. OK I just wanted to clarify that.
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