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August 4, 1994 - Part 12
(23:40:18) Senator DODD. You've been very candid with us and I think most of us like candor. All of us know the feelings when someone has been at cross-hairs with us politically, and all of a sudden we hear they're about to get a position and to be in a position of some influence and how we all react. I think everyone at this table, whether we agreed with what Mr. Stephanopoulos did or not-I'm not certain he does even-could certainly appreciate his reaction to the notion that Jay Stephens was going to be on the case. I don't think there is a Member at this dais who doesn't sympathize with those personal feelings because we've all been there. The question that I'm raising in a sense is you were candid enough to express to us your concern about Ms. Kulka, given the previous history with the law firm that you represented, and the reasons why. I'm asking whether or not that in any way was going to cause you or the White House in some way to interfere with her being Mr. NUSSBAUM. No. Senator DODD [continuing]. Approved for the job of handling the case with the RTC. Mr. NUSSBAUM. No. By the time I learned about Ms. Kulka on February 2nd, she was already hired as was Mr. Ryan and once I learned they were hired, even though I asked about our processes) I took not a single step to try in any way to unhire them. Senator DODD. OK let me go back Mr. NUSSBAUM. I acted with them just the way I acted with re- Spect to Mr. Stephens-when I learned about Mr, Stephens, when I did go a little bit ballistic internally in the White House. Some- body used the term about me so I'll use it about myself Senator DODD. We don't know anyone on this Committee that goes ballistic, I want to tell you, We don't have that problem in the Senate I want you to know. [Laughter.] Mr. NUSSBAUM. Even with respect to Mr. Stephens, I said we would and should not do anything about it. Senator DODD. I don't know which evening it was now that there's been so many of these--but Senator Sarbanes I thought 489 asked a very good line of questioning and I'm trying to recall, maybe it was of Mr. Altman, maybe it was of Mr. Steiner, I can't recall who it was. This is a very important meeting for this Senator anyway, the meeting of September 29th, because it relates to Mr. Altman's testimony before the Committee on the 24th on this conflict we have between what Ms. Hanson remembers as to why she was at the Waco meeting and what her job was to do there in terms of her discussing the matter of the referrals with you. What Senator Sarbanes' line of questioning had to do with is this; is Ms. Hanson or was Ms. Hanson the kind of person that would have initiated that kind of a discussion on her own. Senator Sarbanes can interrupt me if I don't ask this correctly, but given the fact that she was General Counsel there, and obviously had a line of authority but certainly moved around, you said you'd met with her, I think, a number of other times, talked to her a number of times. Is it inconceivable that Ms. Hanson could have had this conversation with you without being directed by Mr. Altman, if she had acquired the information directly from someone else and not Mr. Altman? Mr. NUSSBAUM. That's a tough question. I don't Senator DODD. Do you understand the importance of it? Mr. NUSSBAUM. Oh, I understand the importance of it. Sort of a fight I want to stay out of right now. Senator DODD. You'll get a lot of allies. Mr. NUSSBAUM. It's-the answer is I don't know, I have great respect actually for both of them. I have respect for Mr. Altman, I've known him a while, I don't agree with everything he's done, but I have great respect for him. But I also have come to know Ms. Hanson to some extent, and I have great respect for her. I think she's- Senator DODD. Was your relationship The CHAIRMAN. I'm sorry. What were you going to say? You think Mr. NUSSBAUM, I think she's a woman of integrity and forthrightness and she's a good person. I mean I dealt with her a number of occasions when she was General Counsel of the Treasury and I was White House Counsel, so I have great respect for both these people and obviously there is some sort of conflict between them with respect to their recollection. Maybe he doesn't remember and she does remember it, maybe they're both telling the truth. That's what I hope is happening. Senator DODD, Let me ask you one more question. I think you've answered it to the best of your ability. But you knew her well enough that she wouldn't necessarily have been in awe of you and your position at the White House, she would have been comfortable based on previous relationships to bring up a subject matter with without having authority from someone else to raise it with .,;."You? Is that a fair statement? Mr. NUSSBAUM. Yes, I agree with that. I'm not saying that happened here but I agree, yes. She wouldn't have been in awe of me. I didn't find very many people in Government in awe of me.
Fishing: Man standing in Row boat fishing
(On Preview Cassette #98001) Fishing: Man standing in Row boat fishing
Fishing: Men throw fish in river Fishing:...
Fishing: Men throw fish in river Fishing: Woman fishing
Fishing: Men throw fish in river
Fishing: Men throw fish in river
August 4, 1994 - Part 12
(23:45:12) Senator DODD. I guess I don't have to ask about the February 2nd meeting, now do I? Let me run down there, This is a-the dates, September 29th, October 14th, February 2nd, February 3rd, 490 the 24th, March 1st, these are all the dates we've been hearing about now for the last 5 or 6 days. It's obviously the brackets here in time. We've heard a lot of people talk about where they clearly felt significant mistakes and bad judgment calls occurred. My own view is that the contacts, there were so many and too many people, were sloppy, The March 1st and 3rd ones, I thought, were irresponsible, to put it mildly, in terms of not getting back when there was clearly debate over what was said, and what was not said at this Committee's hearing on the 24th. I think that the whole notion of two hats, as Senator Sarbanes just said, invited its own set of problems. I'd like you quickly-because I see the light on here-but quickly to go back down here and identify where you think the principal mistakes were made. If you could redo this thing, where were the major mistakes made, where should we as a Committee be looking to say here are the things that should have been done differently? Mr. NUSSBAUM. Let me tell you there are two areas. One, as I said in my statement, we made mistakes in the White House. Mr. Cutler's report indicates some of those mistakes. There were too many meetings, too many people. I wrote a series of memos designed to prevent contacts between people in the White House and other agencies-regulatory, independent, Department of Justice, Department of the Treasury-with respect to investigative matters. I didn't want people from the White House communicating with any other agencies with respect to those matters unless the Counsel's Office was involved so we could make sure that it was an official, proper, public purpose. That system, I believed, worked well, by and large, from January 20, 1993, until about February 2, 1994. It broke down. It broke down, to some extent, in February 1994 when too many people in the White House were having too many conversations with people over at Treasury and RTC, with respect to this matter, without Counsel present. I should have been more vigilant and more alert and I take some of the responsibility, maybe most of the responsibility, for that. It broke down, Mr. Cutler's proposed rules with respect to all conversations shall just be Counsel to Counsel on these issues and no one else is involved, when there are issues with regard to investigations or adjudication, is a good rule. It means, now, even if Counsel is present you can't have such a conversation. The conversation has to be only Counsel to Counsel because if you have other people in on the meetings, then they think they can go out and talk on their own. So Mr. Cutler's suggestion is a good suggestion. That's where we made one mistake, which I'm sorry about, which Mr. Cutler and others in the White House I'm sure will correct as they should correct. There is one other area I must throw out to you that this Committee should exercise oversight and it would be hard to do things, and that is these enormous leaks that come out of these agencies, the RTC particularly, which are under your oversight supervision. Something must be done with respect to that issue. This is a serious problem in the United States, these leaks that come out of RTC and come out of other agencies, Department of Justice, U.S. Attorney's offices around the country from time to time., This is a serious 491 problem in our society and part of the reason we had these meetings was basically to defend ourselves against this kind of thing. This doesn't justify doing everything or anything because somebody is leaking but nonetheless, this is a serious problem. When you get a good man like Louie Freeh to head the FBI and he announces a policy that there shall be no leaks, anybody who is ,caught leaking will be fired-that's what I believe Director Freeh has said-I think he's going to take control over the Bureau in that sense and prevent leaks. That can be done by him. I I think Janet Reno is trying to make efforts in the Department of Justice, too. But there are too many agencies with investigative responsibilities such as the RTC, which do leak. Too many innocent people are hurt. And that is something this Committee, I think, with all due respect should consider. senator DODD, Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Dodd. senator Bennett. Senator BENNETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You're quite a refreshing personality, Mr. Nussbaum.
Mountains: Olympic mountain
Mountains: Olympic mountain
Roads: Mountain Roads, P.O.V. inside car
Roads: Mountain Roads, P.O.V. inside car
Alaska: Snowy mountain
Alaska: Snowy mountain
Alaska: Lake
Alaska: Lake
Cactus: Wildflower
Cactus: Wildflower
Desert: Shrubby trees in
Desert: Shrubby trees in
Cactus: Blooming
Cactus: Blooming
Desert: Barren wasteland
Desert: Barren wasteland
Desert: With camel
ON PREVIEW CASSETTE 95519 Desert: With camel
Desert: Oasis, Egypt
PREVIEW CASSETTE # 212848 Desert: Oasis, Egypt
Earth: Parched
Earth: Parched
Desert: Sand Dunes
Desert: Sand Dunes
Desert: Plant growth
PREVIEW CASSETTE # 218979 Desert: Plant growth
Desert: North American
PREVIEW CASSETTE # 218979 Desert: North American
Weather: Sand storm, desert, rain
PREVIEW CASSETTE # 218979 Weather: Sand storm, desert, rain