Reel

August 4, 1994 - Part 12

August 4, 1994 - Part 12
Clip: 460817_1_1
Year Shot: 1994 (Actual Year)
Audio: Yes
Video: Color
Tape Master: 10097
Original Film: 104565
HD: N/A
Location: Dirksen Senate Office Building
Timecode: -

(23:05:27) The CHAIRMAN. You're obviously a man of charm and intellect and from everything I know about your record in public service in the past and more recently, I think you brought the best of intentions and motives to the job. Let me just state that and stipulate that at the outset, I think you had no right whatsoever to inject yourself in any way, shape or form in Roger Altman's consideration of whether he should recuse himself. I think to say one word to him about it was improper on its face on two grounds. I want to tell you what they are, and I feel very strongly about it. Mr. NUSSBAUM. So do 1, Mr. Chair-man, The CHAIRMAN. He came to the White House that day on February 2nd in his capacity as the acting head of the RTC. The RTC is an independent agency. They don't report to you, and you have no authority as the lawyer for the President or as a person with strong personal opinions, and you obviously have them, to in effect cut into the activity or the decisionmaking of somebody heading that agency on any question, large or small. You just have no right to do that, in my opinion. You don't have that right. Mr. NUSSBAUM. I disagree with you, sir. The CHAIRMAN. I know you do, and you'll have a chance to re spond when I finish. I feel very strongly that you don't have that right, and I think to take it upon yourself to do that and to cross that line and to, in effect, interfere with the judgment or the think ing of someone who's heading an independent agency of that kind is not a proper function of the President's Legal Counsel. I think 479 on the first ground, you crossed a line that you yourself should not have crossed. Number two, I think you crossed it in an area where there was a case under consideration that, in fact, directly involved the President, and you were a representative of the President, for the President, in your role as his Legal Counsel. I think that was the second reason, as hard as it might have been for you to do it because you had very strong feelings, I understand that, I respect the fact that you have strong feelings because I have strong feelings, too. But that was one time when you should have bit your tongue, if you had to bite it in half, and not stick your nose into that decision. I think you had no right to do it on either ground. I would further add, I don't think Mr. Altman should have come over there, in a sense, putting the idea out there and allowing him to be in a situation where he could be subjected to responses by you, and I think clearly pressure by you-you may not have thought of it as pressure Mr. NUSSBAUM. I don't think it The CHAIRMAN. In my mind, it isn't important whether you thought it was pressure. It's important whether he thought it was pressure and he felt pressure and I'm convinced that he did. I think his behavior shows that. We've got other evidence that shows it. I think in a situation like this, because of your role reporting for the President-reporting to the President, being his chief lawyer, when you inject yourself into that process, it injects pressure, whether that is your intention or not, I think he felt pressure, and I think he responded to that pressure. Now, I don't think he should have-if he was going to come over and say that, he should have taken the action to recuse himself first, he should have written a letter, filed a letter and if he wanted to then inform you that it had been done, I think that's an entirely different matter. But to come over and announce so I think that was a mistake on his part, but to announce the intention and then to have you just barge right into that decision as if you had some right to weigh in on it is a misjudgment on your part. I don't think you had that right. Now, I understand you have a different opinion. I'm giving you ,my opinion because we spent a lot of time examining this, just as you have. We've heard a lot of witnesses. I think that a central part of the problem that we have here is the fact that there was an interference with that recusal decision. Mr. Altman had reached the decision. He testified before us, sitting right where you are now, that he had reached a decision to recuse himself. It was in .his briefing notes. After you ventilated your opinion, obviously strongly, and you make a reference here to it, when you have an opinion, you tend Ito give it strongly, and I felt that tonight just as you read your testimony. I think when you expressed that view as the President's lawyer and other people in that room reinforced expressing reservations about him doing it, I think he felt pressure. He behaved in a manner that demonstrates that because within 24 hours, he not only changed his mind and decided not to recuse himself, but he felt the need to come back to the White House and report that decision in a meeting and to ask for a meeting to do it. He should 480 not have done that either. Now, I know you don't see it, and that's part of what bothers me, is that you don't even see it yet. Mr. NUSSBAUM. What bothers me is you don't see important things too. The CHAIRMAN. I listened to you. I listened to you for 27 pages.