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August 4, 1994 - Part 9
(18:15:04) Senator FAIRCLOTH. As you may be aware, Roger Altman testified before us Tuesday and one of the items discussed was his diary, as he has called it, or a scrapbook of historical significance. After a meeting with Maggie Williams, Hillary Clinton's Chief of Staff, on January 11th, Mr. Altman wrote that he had gotten the impression the White House was actively trying to negotiate officials at the Justice Department the scope and jurisdiction of what a Special Counsel could look into. This, of course, was prior to the appointment of the Special Counsel. The point being that after months of opposing the appointment of a Special Counsel, the Clintons were finally about to succumb to the growing political pressure and to ask the Attorney General to appoint a Special Counsel, but not until they first tried to limit what he could look into. Mr. Fiske, did you-Mr. Lindsey rather., did you talk with Robert Fiske prior to his appointment as Special Counsel? Mr. LINDSEY. No, sir. Senator FAIRCLOTH, Did you talk with Bernard Nussbaum about Mr. Fiske before his appointment as Special Counsel? Mr. LINDSEY. I don't believe so. I think I had heard that Mr. Fiske's name had been mentioned as a possible candidate, but I don't believe Senator FAIRCLOTH. This is an important question: Did you talk with Bernard Nussbaum about Robert Fiske prior to his appointment as Special Counsel? Mr. LINDSEY. Again, I think I had heard that Mr. Fiske's name was one of the names being mentioned, Bernie and I may have talked about that, but we didn't talk in any detail about it, it was simply a discussion about the newspaper accounts. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Did you talk with anyone at the Justice Department concerning jurisdiction or scope of the Special Counsel? Mr. LINDSEY. No, sir, I did not and I do not know of anyone in the White House who did. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Thank you. And thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sarbanes, do I understand (18:17:02)(tape #10093 ends) Senator SARBANES. I think Senator Murray has been here throughout and The CHAIRMAN. She's prepared to have you go next. Senator MURRAY. I'm really used to going last. Senator SARBANES. Fin happy to defer to you. Senator MURRAY. OK, that's fine. I'm ready. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Murray. Senator MURRAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and thank you, Senator Sarbanes. 398 Welcome, gentlemen. I sit way over here, I generally go last, usually every question has been asked, but in my State we believe In conserving resources, so I don't like to rehash what we've already gone through. If for a minute you will indulge me, I want to review what I think I know after 5 days here. It seems to me that the RTC handed down nine criminal referrals on Madison Guaranty, Apparently the President and the First Lady were named as possible witnesses so this information which was perceived by some as newsworthy was leaked from the RTC to the press. That apparently is no Surprise to anybody either. Reporters started asking questions. They wanted responses and more information, and they started calling the RTC, the Department of Treasury and the White House. So because of those press inquiries, officials from those agencies and the White House met to discuss how to deal with those press inquiries. I think I'm right so far. Now because of all of those meetings that occurred as a result of press inquiries, charges are now being made that those meetings were illegal or unethical or im proper. And, as a result of that, we have piled through tons of depositions and paperwork, 5 days of hearings and a lot of questions. Am I right in all of that? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Basically. Senator MURRAY. Well, I do believe that it would have been better if a lot of those meetings hadn't taken place, but I also think that it's unfair that when the press knows something and, hence, the American people and Senate staff know it, there should be a process in place so that those who are affected by that information should also have it. My question is: How do we set up a system so that contacts can be made between Government agencies so that people in Government know what everybody else knows? Maybe Mr. Stephanopoulos can address this. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Sure, I'd be happy. I think that Mr. Cutler did testify or is planning on testifying before this Committee and I think he's laid out appropriate guidelines for making sure you contact Counsel's Office on that. But I think that the basic dynamic point that is also right. There was an awful lot of information flying out of the RTC and other places that we weren't aware of but there were a number of reporters and other organizations were and that put us at something of a disadvantage but I think it should be done properly and Mr. Cutler has laid out proper guidelines. Senator MURRAY. He does testify tomorrow, and I will be listening to his testimony, because I hope we learn some lessons from this in order to handle it right in the future. There will be times in the future for some President down the road who may have to deal with the same kind of thing and I don't think it's fair for them to be at a disadvantage. The other question we have spent a great deal of time on here is the question of recusals and I want to get to what I think is the problem there. Mr. Stephanopoulos, do you know Ellen Kulka? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. No, I do not.
August 4, 1994 - Part 9
(18:20:23) Senator MURRAY. Mr. Lindsey, do you know her? 399 Mr. LINDSEY. No, ma'am. Senator MURRAY. Mr. Podesta? Mr. PODESTA. No. Senator MURRAY. Mr. Ickes? Mr. ICKES. No, I do not. Senator MURRAY. Did any of you try to pressure Roger Altman not to recuse himself because you thought he would be more lenient toward the Madison case than Ellen Kulka would be? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. No. Mr. PODESTA. No. Mr. LINDSEY. No. Mr. ICKES. I did not and I repeat what I've said before at this hearing and elsewhere that it was my clear recollection that Mr. Altman said in the February 2nd meeting that he was basically going to follow the recommendations of the staff attorneys. Senator MURRAY. And let me get to the final questions which I really think are the most critical questions we can ask and I want each one of you to answer this. Have you ever done anything, anything whatsoever, to impede or derail an investigation at the RTC or the Department of Justice? Mr. PODESTA. Absolutely not. Mr. LINDSEY. No. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. No. Mr. ICKES. No. Senator MURRAY. Are any of you aware of anybody who is responsible for derailing or impeding a investigation into Madison? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. No. Mr. PODESTA. No. Mr. LINDSEY. No. Mr. ICKES. No. Senator MURRAY. And do any of you know of anybody or have you yourself ever seen the criminal referrals? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. No. Mr. PODESTA. No. Mr. LINDSEY, No. Mr. ICKES. No. Senator MURRAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Murray. Senator Hatch. Senator HATCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Stephanopoulos, let me approach this with you. Some have tried to explain the events which occurred on February 25th as a minor political gaffe, "political gaffe." However, given the testimony this Committee has heard this week Senator DODD. What date is that you are talking about? I'm sorry. Senator HATCH. February 25th. If you take the testimony that this Committee has been given this week, I believe it would be irresponsible Senator KERRY. I'm sorry, I didn't follow that February 24th was the testimony; right? Senator HATCH. I'm talking about the events which occurred on February 25th. Senator KERRY. OK. 400 Senator HATCH. I personally believe it would be irresponsible for the Congress to dump that position absent significant additional inquiry. In his testimony before this Committee, Mr. Altman confirmed that you wanted the RTC to try and get rid of or fire Mr. Stephens. Now that's the Altman hearing testimony. In addition we have Jean Hanson's testimony, both in her deposition and in this hearing, that Mr. Steiner told her after his discussions with you and Mr. Altman that the White House wanted to get rid of Mr. Stephens. Now, Ms. Hanson also testified that, following this conversation with you or following his conversation with you, Josh Steiner suggested that Ms. Kulka be fired and that the RTC case be given to the Independent Counsel. As well, we have Mr. Steiner's testimony in his diary, all of which indicate this is more than just a political gaffe situation. Now, as Mr. Steiner testified, you Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Senator, if I may. Senator HATCH. Let me ask the question first. As Mr. Steiner testified, you called him after the White House learned that Altman had recused himself; right? That's when that call occurred? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Again, I would say, first of all, that I'm not sure who called who, whether he called me to inform me but we had a conversation. Senator HATCH. That conversation occurred after Mr. Altman Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. After Mr. Altman had had a conversation with The New York Times. Senator HATCH. And said he would recuse himself. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Yes. Senator HATCH. Mr. Ickes-as Mr. Ickes testified in his deposition, when you learned of Mr. Altman's recusal on the 25th you expressed surprise. Now, that's true, isn't it? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Oh, certainly, sir. I was surprised by the manner in which he recused himself, yes. Senator HATCH. I understand. Mr. Steiner testified that your telephone conversation occurred first, prior to the call with Mr. Altman. Indeed you testified that your phone call with Mr. Steiner was prior to the Altman/Ickes conference and I think you affirm this in your opening statement. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. I believe that's true, sir, yeah. Senator HATCH. OK. Mr. Steiner also testified that after his call from you, he was present in Mr. Altman's office later in the day, in that particular day and that you and Mr. Ickes called Mr. Altman. It's correct that you and Mr. Ickes called Mr. Altman later in that day? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Yes, sir, it is. Senator HATCH. OK. I just want to get these facts straight because I think some of them are hard to follow. Returning to the first call, the one either from Mr. Steiner to you or from you to Mr. Steiner, Mr. Steiner has testified clearly that your voice was raised in that but you've kind of indicated Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Oh, I grant that, sir. Senator HATCH. OK. Mr. Steiner's testimony, in his deposition, Mr. Steiner testified that you called him but you're not sure of that. 401 Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. I'm not certain. Senator HATCH. It could have been that? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. it could have been either way, I just don't know. Senator HATCH. In your deposition, you testified that the reason you asked about Mr. Stephens' hiring was that you were "anticipating questions from the press." Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Certainly, sir, I was expecting given such a surprising choice I would expect that Anne Devereaux of The Washington Post or Doug Joel of The New York Times would ask. Senator HATCH. I understand, You admitted in your deposition that at the time of your phone call with Mr. Steiner there had been no press inquiries to you concerning the hiring of Mr. Stephens; that's right, isn't it?
Hunting Forest and Jungle with Dogs
All of the following shots are intercut with a moment of black between them. Images change from b/w to color as indicated. Dirty b/w shot of two men carrying dead cheetah (?) tied to a pole at its ankles. cheetah dangles upside down. Hunters and guides with cheetah walk slowly through brush. Dog jumping up against a tree. Woman with rifle aims to sky. Dogs gather in brush, barking. Another shot of woman with rifle aiming into sky - fires. OTS shot of man firing rifle in sky. Quick shots of dogs mauling prey on the ground. Still shot of stiff, dead prey (kind of looks like a cheetah or some other large cat). MS dogs in brush barking at camera (2x). COLOR:. Hunter in hat holds up head of dead cat on the ground. Woman with rifle kneels next to her kill - another large cat. B/W: hunters gathered around prey in brush. MCU hunter and dog in brush. COLOR: dogs and hunters in brush around kill - dogs mauling the already dead animal. Brief CU same.
August 4, 1994 - Part 9
(18:25:46) Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Part of my job, sir, is to anticipate press inquiries and I believe that it was fair to say there would be one. Senator HATCH. Right, but up to that point there had been no press inquiries? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. No, but certainly part of my job is to anticipate them. Senator HATCH. I understand. Ellen Kulka testified earlier this week that Stephens had been hired nearly one month earlier. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. I don't know when he was hired. Senator HATCH. You hadn't had any press inquiries up to that point, though, is my point. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Not up to that point. Senator HATCH. During your deposition, you were asked whether you'd contacted the White House press office following your call with Mr. Steiner in order to alert them of these "anticipated press calls" and you admitted that you had not; right? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Not immediately but I wouldn't necessarily do it immediately, I run into them several times during the day. Senator HATCH. Right, I understand. From Mr. Steiner's testimony, it really doesn't appear that you were very concerned about the press calls. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Oh, no, I was concerned in finding out the information of how he had come to be hired, anticipating the calls. I'm not suggesting, sir, that my anger was about the press calls. My anger was real and it was about the fact that he was chosen. Those are two separate matters. What I needed to know was the information anticipating the press calls and that's what I got from Mr. Steiner and that ended the phone conversation. Senator HATCH. I think you made that position clear before. According to Mr. Steiner's testimony, you asked him how Mr. STEPHENS. had been hired; right? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Yes, sir. Senator HATCH. Mr. Steiner testified that after he told you how Mr- Stephens had been hired, you told him that Mr. Stephens should be disqualified for conflict of interest and that you have testified that, you basically said this when you gave your deposition. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. I know I believe that he has a conflict of interest, Sir, yes. 402 Senator HATCH. That was your point, yes. As I mentioned earlier this Committee has uncovered at least three separate pieces of evi- dence that you urged Treasury officials to attempt to fire Mr. Stephens. The Altman testimony, the Hanson testimony and the Steiner Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Sir, that's where I have a question, sir. I have not seen the Altman testimony and I'm not certain that in the testimony of Ms. Hanson it was clear when she talked to Mr. Steiner or whether he confirmed that at all. I'm not familiar with the Altman testimony. I would point out, sir, that this was looked at by the Special Counsel, Mr. Fiske, and he found no criminal conduct. The Office of Government Ethics found no ethical misconduct. Senator HATCH. That's not my point. My point is that we feel we've uncovered three different pieces of evidence from the three of them that you -wanted Mr. Stephens fired. Now, Mr. Stephanopoulos, let me just- Senator KERRY. They're not technically different, Senator. They're built on each other. Senator HATCH. I understand. Senator KERRY. Don't just dismiss that. They're not three separate pieces so let's have the record be clear. Senator HATCH. Well, let's look at them then later when you have time. I think they're pretty clear. I would like you to read from page 2 of the Steiner diary transcript where it begins "after Howell Rains." Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Sir, it's not my diary. Senator HATCH. It's not your diary, but I'd like you to read it. "After Howell Rains" and just read down through the sentence which ends with "stupid and improper" because this is what he says. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. It is not my diary. I'm not going to read it. Senator HATCH. I just want to see if we can refresh your recollection with this. If you can't say you don't Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. I'm looking at it, I've heard it several times. I'm not going to read it. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Hatch, I don't know that he should be expected to read somebody else's diary. I think he can read it off a piece of paper to himself or you can state it to him. Senator HATCH. Let me just read it. "After Howell Rain from The New York Times called to say that they were going to write a brutal editorial, RA decided to recuse himself Harold and George then called to say that BC was furious. They also asked how Jay Stephens, the former USA, had been hired to be outside counseling in this case. Simply outrageous that RTC had hired him. But even. more amazing when George then suggested to me that we needed to find a way to get rid of him. Persuaded George that firing him would be incredibly stupid and improper." Now, let me just ask you that, during your deposition when you were asked about whether you told Mr. Steiner to get rid of or fire Mr. Stephens, you told the Committee "I just don't remember." Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. As I repeated today, sir, yes. Senator HATCH. Given the testimony this week and after you 've had an opportunity to read that and that's why I wanted you to 403 read it. I wasn't trying to embarrass you, I just wanted you to read the darned thing. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS, It's no embarrassment, sir. Senator HATCH. OK, Let me ask you the question again. Did you ask the--did you ask Mr. Steiner whether the RTC or anyone else could fire or get rid of Mr. Stephens? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. I don't remember saying that at all, sir. Senator HATCH. Is it possible you did? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Again, that is not my memory of the conversation. Senator HATCH. So as far as you're concerned Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. That's not the testimony I gave to this Committee.