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Pacific Search - Hope Fades For Rockefeller
Pacific Search - Hope Fades For Rockefeller. Despite encouraging clues, there seems little chance that Michael Rockefeller, 23 year old son of New York's Governor, has survived his ordeal in the jungles of New Guinea. He swam for shore when his boat capsized off the coast. His companion, who stayed with the craft, was rescued but there is no sign of Michael's fate. .
August 1, 1994 - Part 9
(22:50:19) Then you say, "I recall Mr. Ickes saying that if Mr. Altman were going to recuse himself, he thought he should, he should do it being Mr. Altman---"thought he should do it sooner rather than doing it later." Here is the key sentence. "I recall Mr. Nussbaum saying that he thought, if Mr. Altman did not recuse himself, it would impose discipline on the process to obtain a fairer result." I'll come back to that, but to finish my overall point, you are asked what the tenor of the meeting is, whether it's a business meeting, and so on. You say it was a business meeting, but Mr. Nussbaum got excited and through the questions, which I won't prolong, he got excited when Mr. Altman said he planned to recuse himself. Then, here is the capstone, in my view. "The following morning, Mr. Altman called me. He said he had spoken with Mr. McLarty 189 the prior evening." So we have Mr. Nussbaum saying you should not recuse yourself, because it will impose discipline on the process and produce a fairer result, "fairer" implying, in my view, different than you would get if it was left to Ms. Kulka. "Mr. McLarty, the prior evening-Mr. McLarty had wanted to know what had taken place in the evening." Mr. McLarty didn't attend the meeting. "He also said that he had had a couple of other calls"--and I will ask Mr. Altman from whom the other calls came- -"and that be had decided he would not recuse himself for the time being. He said he didn't believe that it made any difference to the outcome, but that it made them happy." You are asked, elsewhere, who is them? You say, "The people at the White House represents them." Then, on another occasion in your testimony, when Mr. Altman is telling Mr. Nussbaum that he is going to testify and state in his testimony that, because of the Vacancy Act, be would have no participation, you say, "I called Mr. Nussbaum, in accordance with Mr. Altman's request, and gave him that information." And what did Mr. Nussbaum say, "I recall Mr. Nussbaum saying be's going to leave us with Ellen Kulka." It seems to me that this is pressure. In the language we've been using-no harm, no foul-Mr. Nussbaum was not successful in seeing to it that Ellen Kulka was kept out of it. Ellen Kulka will make the final decision. We will all stipulate that it will be fair, but I would like to give you the opportunity to talk about these words that, to me, demonstrate an attempt, unsuccessful-no harm, no foul-but an attempt to place someone in the position of making the final decision that, at least in Mr. Nussbaum's --perception, would, to quote the term you have used, "impose discipline on the process" and to quote, again, your term, "obtain a fairer result." I'd love your comments on that because, as I say, I intend to discuss that with Mr. Altman at some length. Ms. HANSON. I've beard Mr. Nussbaum's testimony on his views on recusal. I understand what those views are. He states he believes that, unless there is a mandated recusal, people should serve. I understood, when Mr. Nussbaum made the comment, in my words, about discipline- having a discipline process-and I recall that I said, would produce a fair result Senator BENNETT. Are you saying this deposition should be corrected to say "fair," not "fairer"? Ms. HANSON. Yes, as I say, I have not had an opportunity to read my deposition, but that's what I understood. It would produce a fair result, which meant that if someone of Mr. Altman's stature were overseeing the process, and people knew they would have to report to him, they would accomplish their work in a professional, thorough manner so the result would be fair. I didn't understand Mr. Nussbaum to be asking for any preferable treatment or for any outcome that was other than fair.
August 1, 1994 - Part 9
(23:10:40) Ms. HANSON. I can't say what was in Mr. Altman's mind, at that time, about that letter. I have testified as to how I viewed the letter and what I understood the letter to be. Senator GRAMM. In your mind, because you were going to do another letter later, you thought that this was an adequate, acceptable response to give? Ms. HANSON. With respect to putting the Committee on notice of the two fall meetings-but, again, sir, it was not intended to fully answer +I%,- question or to be a complete supplement, by any means, to the transcript. Senator GRAmm. Maam, let me just read you what this says. I don't understand this whole! logic. Let me just read you this, give you the answer, and then, pose a couple of quick questions. With regard to the second paragraph of the letter, the situation is that you've been asked, "Were there any other communications between the RTC and the White House?" and that Mr. Altman says, in the letter in which he had answered, "Not to my knowledge." Forget the fact that we know-and I could give you 20 or more examples where-that's not true. Just forget that. Then, this letter comes down and says, "I have learned, today, of two conversations which did take place between Treasury staff and White House personnel on this matter. Ms. Hanson, you have answered questions, in the last hour, in which you said that you, not just anybody that worked for the Treasury, but you, had conversations with the White House on February 3, 1994, 49 1994, February 8, 1994, and two conversations with two different people on February 23, 1994. In fact I three different people on February 23, 1994, one day before the testimony. When you read this letter, when you had, personally, had one, two, three, four, five, six communications yourself , as a member of the Treasury Department, didn't you think about it and say "Mr. Altman, you write here that you said at the Committee you had no knowledge of any communications between Treasury staff and the White House, but that you have learned about two"? Did you think about saying, 'Mr. Altman I have, personally, myself, had a mini-mum of six communications, and three of them were the day before you testified"? I don't understand why-when you read this letter, why you didn't say to him, "Mr. Altman, this is clearly not true." Ms. HANSON. This letter was intended to respond to Senator Bond's question that asked how the White House was notified of the referrals, because the first conversation that he refers to, of the two conversations, was my conversation with Mr. Nussbaum. This was not intended to answer-in fact, at the time this letter was written, I hadn't even-the only questions that I had before me 195 were the two questions of Senator Bond as to how the White House had been notified. Senator GRAMM. To try to save time, and not to be impolite, when Senator Bond asked him, at the hearing, whether any other conversations had taken place, he answers, "Not to my knowledge." Then, he writes in this letter that he's learned, today, of two conversations. My point is, you yourself, by testimony you've given today, have told us that you were involved in one, two, three, four, five, six conversations, three of them the day before he testified. How could you not say, "Mr. Altman, this letter is verifiably false"'? I can't conceive-it's almost as if,. Ms. Hanson, you can compartmentalize, in your mind, this question, and limit it down to just what Mr. Altman wants to say, and that he is saying he is giving a limited response when he says he would appreciate the ability, through this letter, to amend the record.
August 1, 1994 - Part 9
(22:55:32) Mr. Nussbaum is an advocate and he advocated his position, but the final decision was Mr. Altman's. When Mr. Altman called me on February 3, 1994, and said that he had decided not to recuse himself, for the time being, and that he thought it didn't make any difference to the outcome, but it made them happy, I agreed with him. I didn't believe it made any difference to the outcome either, because Ms. Kulka was 190 in charge of the investigation, she was going to make the recommendation, and I believed that he would follow it. Senator BENNETT. I shan't prolong- this because, as I say, it's really an issue to discuss with Mr. Altman, but I wanted to give you the opportunity to talk on it. I will make the comment that I think Mr. Nussbaum is on thin ice here, to be leaning on a man who has walked in and said, "I plan to recuse myself, my General Counsel has told me to recuse myself, my immediate superior, who is a Cabinet-level officer, has agreed that I should recuse myself"for a member of the White House staff to say, "No, you should stay where you are, because I want a fair result, is, in my view, an improper thing for a member of the White House staff to do, but that is something I will pursue with Mr. Altman. Ms. HANSON. Just to be clear, I have no recollection of Mr. Nussbaum telling Mr. Altman he had to do one thing, as opposed to another. He expressed his views and Senator BENNETT. He apparently got excited. Ms. HANSON. He's an excitable person. The CHAIRMAN. It sounds to me like-if I may, a while back I said I was going to take a minute here-he certainly got his point across. By all the testimony we have, Mr. Altman went in prepared to recuse himself. He got turned around, came out, and decided not to recuse himself. I want to ask you this. Do you know when the moment came when he made the decision to recuse himself and to whom he said that? Ms. HANSON. I don't recall the exact moment. The CHAIRMAN. I've read-and I don't know whether it's true or not, so I'm asking if you can confirm it-the story that he made the decision or announced the decision, in a discussion with somebody on the editorial board of The New York Times. Do you know whether that's true or not? Ms. HANsON. I don't know, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You've not heard that? Ms. HANSON. I have heard that, but I don't know whether it's true. The CHAIRMAN. But you don't know when the-when did you hear about the decision? Ms. HANSON. The final decision to, actually, recuse himself? Mr. Altman's decision to finally recuse himself, was after the hearing on-the day after the hearing, on February 25, 1994. Let me make sure that we're clear. He had made--he had decided to recuse himself on February 1, 1994. He, actually, recused himself on February 25,1994. The CHAIRMAN. You don't know the circumstances under which that was done, beyond what you've just said? Ms. HANSON. No, I don't. The CHAiRmAN. I have time remaining, Senator Sarbanes, you wanted Senator SARBANES. I just have one or two brief questions I want to put to Ms. Hanson. Just today, Deputy Secretary Altman appeared in an interview with Bernard Shaw on CNN. Mr. Shaw asked him, "Mr. Secretary, the General Counsel of the Treasury Department, Jean Hanson, says that she went to the White House and briefed White House 191 Counsel, Bernard Nussbaum, in September. She says you, her boss told her to do it." Mr. Altman answered, "Well, as you know, I have a different recollection of that. I don't think there is anything un- usual about that." Mr. Shaw asked, "You did not tell her to do it? Mr. Altman answered, "I don't think there is anything unusual about that. The events in question occurred 5 months before the testimony. So having different recollections, I don't think, it is very surprising. So Mr. Altman, even today, holds the position that he did not tell you to go to see Mr. Nussbaum. The reason I put this question to you, is that Mr. Altman's version is consistent with the questions and answers-the draft questions and answers which you put into your computer on, I think, March 1, 1994, as I recall, which said:
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