July 19, 1995 - Part 3
July 19, 1995 - Part 3
(12:45:35) Mr. HUBBELL. That's logical, yes. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Shelby. Senator SHELBY. Mr. Chairman, I'll be as brief as I can. Mr. Hubbell, it's obvious to me that it wasn't what the cleaning people would do, but it would be what Bernie Nussbaum and other people at the White House who were looking through the office there would pilfer or remove from the room. Those are the real concerns. Now, obviously Mr. Nussbaum entered into an agreement with the Department of Justice to let the FBI and the Park Police continue their investigation of any motives and so forth we've talked about. Then, he had second thoughts about this. In other words, he obviously was playing for more time or whatever they were doing, God only knows. But at the same time that he would not let the FBI or the Park Police into the room at the White House, Patsy Thomasson Mr. HUBBELL. Thomasson, yes. Senator SHELBY. Thomasson was sitting at the desk looking through the files and so forth. What's her exact title down there at the White House? Mr. HUBBELL. I really don't know her exact title. I believe she was David Watkins' Chief Deputy, but her official title, I really couldn't tell you. Senator SHELBY. But do you know that she doesn't have a secu- rity clearance? I'm talking about national security clearance. Mr. HUBBELL. I was not aware Senator SHELBY. That she didn't at that time? Mr. HUBBELL. I was not aware of that. Senator SHELBY. In other words, it was OK for her and others to go through files, but not the FBI or Park Police? Doesn't that seem strange to you as a number three person at the Justice Department, which the FBI comes under? Mr. HUBBELL. Again, you are asking me to assume that she went through files, which I don't know Senator SHELBY. Let's assume that she did, that it's undisputed just for Senator SARBANES. It's not undisputed. Senator SHELBY. Let's assume, then, for the sake of the question, that she was sitting at the desk and that she was looking for a note or other relevant things. Is that strange to you? Mr. HUBBELL. It is not strange to me that Patsy would have gone: and looked for a note. I think that's a normal human reaction. It's just not strange to me. Or that David might have said go up, unlock the door and see if there's a note on the desk. That doesn't seem strange to me. Senator SHELBY. What about Maggie Williams? Does it seem strange to you that Maggie Williams was down there in the office'? What was she doing? I don't know, but she had access to the Dep- 131 uty White House Counsel's Office. No one kicked her out of the office, but they wouldn't let the FBI into the office. Mr. HUBBELL. I am not surprised that Maggie, at a time of great grief, would go to the office where she had probably spent hours upon days with Vince. She and Vince were probably the closest lawyer-client personal relationship. I'm not surprised that a human reaction would be to go to that office and break down and cry. Now, I don't know what she did, but I would not be surprised, and I-frankly, Maggie is a high-ranking official. She has the same rank as Bernie Nussbaum. So I, she has Senator SHELBY. Do you know if she has national security clearance? Mr. HUBBELL. I do not know. I really don't. Senator SHELBY, Would you be surprised if she did? Mr. HUBBELL. I would be surprised if she did not, Senator SHELBY. OK. But it doesn't surprise you at all that these people would go in this office, but they wouldn't let the FBI, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, go in the office, and you're the number three Associate Attorney General of the United States? Mr. HUBBELL. Under some circumstances, I'm certain the FBI should be allowed to come in the office, yes. I don't know that they said you can't come in the office-I just don't know. Senator SHELBY. You wouldn't be surprised if somebody said, like Mr. Nussbaum, stay out, would you? Mr. HUBBELL. I would be surprised if they said stay out, but there may be a good reason. I just don't know what happened. Senator SHELBY. What's the reason to keep people from knowing things that they didn't want to be ventilated publicly?