July 19, 1995 - Part 1
July 19, 1995 - Part 1
(10:50:03) Mr. HUBBELL. I would certainly prefer if somebody didn't have a security clearance, that they not go into an office that had confidential materials, except perhaps, again, to look on the top of the desk to see if there's just a note sitting on top of it. The CHAIRMAN. But, certainly, would it be appropriate for a person to go through various files and be permitted in that office which had materials of national security? I have to tell you why I raise this. I am troubled, and obviously we will attempt to explore this in some detail, by how it is that Patsy Thomasson searched or was in that office for up to an hour. Apparently she did not have a security clearance as of that date, July 20, 1993. That's troubling. Would that trouble you if another person, forget Patsy Thomasson, didn't have clearance and came into an office, recognizing the sensitivity of the materials in the office. Whether it be national security issues, issues of a personal nature, et cetera, would that be appropriate? Mr. HUBBELL. I don't know the truth of what you The CHAIRMAN. I understand that. I'm just giving you a hypothetical. Mr. HUBBELL. I would have concerns about somebody riot having a security clearance going through files of anybody's in the White House, especially the White House Counsel. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. Senator Shelby. Senator SHELBY, Thank you. Yesterday, Senator Hatch, my colleague, and I will paraphrase part of his opening statement, said, "Most troubling are the questions pertaining to whether the White House obstructed the Justice Department's investigation into Mr. Foster's death." He follows on, "It seems clear that certain White House officials entered Mr. Fos 96 ter's office before law enforcement investigators could examine the scene and that we need to ascertain," and this is part of what we're doing, "whether subsequent removal of documents in the search of the office was politically motivated, illegal and improper or, as some people think, just signs of poor judgment and panic." Now, my question, I want to get to the attorney-client privilege, Mr. Nussbaum was actually the Counsel for the White House; is that correct? Mr. HUBBELL. Counsel for the President. Senator SHELBY. President of the United States. Now, as such, he was a public servant, was he not? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes, he is, Senator SHELBY. Just like you were a public servant? Mr. HUBBELL. That's correct. Senator SHELBY. You didn't work personally for the President of the United States, Mr. Hubbell; you worked for the Justice Department? Mr. HUBBELL. I worked for the people of the United States. Senator SHELBY. The people of the United States. So did Mr. Nussbaum; is that correct? Mr. HUBBELL. That is correct. Senator SHELBY. When Mr. Nussbaum was putting his hand up saying don't come in the office-I just use that as a metaphor-the FBI can't come in the office, the Park Police can't come into the office, we're going to go inventory everything first, and then he entered into an agreement with the Justice Department, with our own Justice Department, he's the White House Counsel, a public servant. Philip Heymann is the Deputy Attorney General of the United States, and they had to enter into an agreement to look at what was in this Deputy Counsel's Office at the White House. Does that seem odd to you? Mr. HUBBELL. Again, Senator, you're giving me facts. I don't know if they're true or not true. Senator SHELBY, I know, but you know there was an agreement? Mr. HUBBELL. I know that Phil told me there was an agreement, yes. Senator SHELBY. As to the rules of looking and inventorying the office and searching the office? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes, I do know that Phil felt like he had an agree'-' ment with Bernie, Senator SHELBY. Have you heard of any other person in the United States getting an agreement or saying to the FBI or to the Park Police you can't come in here and look at our offices, you can't do this? They would have gone on in there, wouldn't they, or gotten a search warrant and gone on in there? Mr. HUBBELL. I don't know that, Senator. Senator SHELBY. You're a reasonable person Mr. HUBBELL. I'll give you an example. Senator SHELBY. OK. Mr. HUBBELL. Say the FBI or the Special Counsel wants to go into a law firm and look through the firm's records. Usually, there's a negotiated agreement with regard to the privilege. Senator SHELBY. But if there's not an agreement-let's say there was an agreement and then the law firm broke the agreement, said 97 no, you can't do this, what would the Justice Department ordinarily do? Wouldn't they try to go to a judge or a magistrate to the next step? Mr. HUBBELL. I would first try to work it out. Maybe that's just my attitude, that you first try to work out any disagreement before you have to go to court. Senator SHELBY. Isn't time of the essence in inventorying and looking at something? In other words, time was important, the timeliness of going through an office to inventory what was there, especially after people had already been through the office. Senator D'Amato just mentioned Patsy Thomasson going through the office, looking for documents and so forth with no security clearance. Time is important?