August 4, 1994 - Part 13
August 4, 1994 - Part 13
(00:50:09) So I think that was wrong. Now, having said all that, I want to bring up the diary. The diary, in my view, is being held up by, many here as the gospel. I have said from day one I believe the diary is an exaggeration, and I believe-and I think it was interesting when the Chairman opened up that if there was intense pressure, it was inside Mr. Altman. The intense pressure wasn't brought by the people in the room. As far as I can tell, we're grownups. Mr. Altman is a grownup. He's been around the block a few times, as my mother would say. She knew the story. He had been in politics. This is not a child, a public servant who is struggling. So I don't believe that you could intimidate him and I don't believe that you did. I don't think that you brought intense pressure , and I think it is very important that I say that because I don't want the American people to believe that the White House brought intense pressure. Maggie Williams said-when was that, today, Mr. Chairman? The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Senator BOXER. Or yesterday. Maggie Williams said many hours ago Senator BRYAN. Fifteen hours ago. Senator BOXER. Fifteen hours ago when she expressed to Roger Altman, I don't understand why you have to do that. You're not taking the case anyway. You looked at her and rather critically said, and I'm paraphrasing, Maggie, if that's what you call her Mr. NUSSBAUM. I call her Maggie. Senator BOXER. It's up to Roger And Mr. Ickes, who couldn't remember exactly what he said, other people remember him saying, well, Roger if you're going to do it, do it sooner rather than later. Now, I think it's important to ask you one more time because you now know how I feel. I don't think there is a point in arguing it. We just see it differently. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Correct, Senator. Senator BOXER. SO we'll respect each other for that. But I think it's important that you please-this is very important for this White House-tell me if you think the Steiner diary is an exag geration when he says the White House brought intense pressure on Roger Altman on the issue of recusal? Mr. NUSSBAUM. I think the Steiner diary is an exaggeration when it says that we brought intense pressure on Roger Altman. Mr. Steiner was not present at the meeting, I was present at the meeting. I know what happened and we did not bring intense pressure on Roger Altman. Senator BOXER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman- The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Senator Moseley-Braun Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm sitting here listening to all this, and I've got to tell you I was reminded of nothing so much as the Famous Japanese film Rashaman. I wrote down Kurasawa as the director and I know some movie buffs will probably write in and tell me who it really was, but if You re- 509 member that film, it was a situation in which the same set of activities were perceived differently by the different actors, the different people who were involved. And I think that's what we've run up against here, the difference in perceptions. You saw an employee who had received legal advice that it was not required that he step away from his job, and you insisted that he not back away from it. Mr. NUSSBAUM. I asked him to reconsider whether he really shouldn't step away. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. That's even better. Mr. Altman, on the other hand, based on his testimony, felt duty bound to continue with his work, albeit as a one man band. Frankly, I think that the confluence of his two jobs, the way the two jobs came together, should have been, but was not, obvious to him, to you and to the Counsel at Treasury, but it wasn't. I think what you're hearing from the Committee today is that this Committee sees an employee with regard to Roger Altman's role. An employee with a potentially-with two potentially conflicting jobs who was so personally associated with the Presidency, in the public mind and ours, that there was no way that he could have avoided the appearance of impropriety or unfairness or partisanship on behalf of a case that in- volved the President personally. I mean, I think that's the Rashaman that we have here, and I think it is those irreconcilable differences in perception that this issue is joined. The sadness here, of course, and there have been some harsh words and I don't want to sound like I'm piling on, but I, with my colleagues, concur in their judgment about the recusal decision, the sadness here is that reputations for integrity and legal acumen are hung in the balance when you're talking in a Senate hearing on national television. But is it not fair to say, Mr. Nussbaum, that you gave the best advice that you could under the circumstances as you saw them at the time?