August 4, 1994 - Part 13
August 4, 1994 - Part 13
(00:45:17) Senator BOXER. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. Before I start, can I ask you a procedural question which I hope won't take away from my 7 minutes and that is we are waiting for a tran-script to come up. I understand that Ms. Hanson has been deposed on that remaining question that I asked about, and others had other questions, as I understand it. The CHAIRMAN. Right. Senator BOXER, And my understanding, around 1 a.m. we'll have that transcript, Is that the understanding of Counsel?soon. The CHAIRMAN Our hope is we'll have it sometime quite soon. They're working as quickly as they can to transcribe it. Senator BOXER. I think it's very important that we have that be- fore we adjourn this his morning. The CHAIRMAN That's why were making every human effort to get it. 507 Senator BOXER. Thank you very much for everyone's cooperation on that point, Mr. Nussbaum, I want to start off, you don't work at the White House anymore. You're back to normal life. Mr. NUSSBAUM. That's correct. Senator BOXER. And I underscore that. But I think some of the experiences that you had and some of the problems and some of the good things that happened while you were there are important for us to go over. I think the way you handled the Ludwig matter, to me, was the model of how all of these things should have been handled. You didn't call in so many people to deal with an issue. There was a contact that was made. You found it improper. Mr. Klein quickly got the answer, and that was the end of that. And unfortunately, I feel on these other matters, again, that type of model was not followed. That's an opinion here. Now, I want to talk about the recusal matter as well. I think there's a lot riding on this issue. And I don't think it's just about Mr. Altman or you. I think it's about the White House, and therefore, I think it's very important that I tell you what I think and that you respond to itAt least, it's important to me Mr, NUSSBAUM. I'd like to hear what you think. Senator BOXER [continuing]. And hopefully to the people who sent me here. I believe that Roger Altman bringing the issue up with you was not right for him to do. I think it puts you in a very difficult position. At the same time, I feel that when it was brought up, and clearly you were surprised by it, you stated that you were surprised by it, you should have taken a deep breath, in my opinion, and gotten right to your bottom line. Now, you've told us told your bottom line-as a matter of fact, Maggie Williams told us your bottom line that she clearly remembers. It's up to Roger. Mr. NUSSBAUM. That's right. Senator BOXER. That was your bottom line. Mr. NUSSBAUM. It was. while Senator BOXER. But in the meantime, it took you a little while to get to your bottom line, and I think that's where some of the problems come in. Now, when Mr. McLarty was as asked, he said in a very straightforward way from everything we can gather, Roger, it's your decision. Now that you have have shared with us and I think Senator Bryan has expanded on it, expounded on, your view I understand why it was Very difficult , if not impossible , for you to go straight to your bottom line. You thought that Mr, Altman or, as I gather, anyone who had asked to be recused who didn't have to be recused because of legal reasons, you think that person is acting in an unprincipled manner. You said, and I'm quoting from you, you thought "it was unprincipled of Roger." I'm just trying to tell you how I feel about that. I think that is a very harsh and unfair judgment of another human being because what is important, really, is how the person feels in their gut. And no one, even a brilliant lawyer like you, and I agree that are such, has the right, it seems to me, to tell someone, really, or question how they feel in their gut. So I think we need to have respect for that issue, even thought I you're right. You bring out some important points about the practical difficulties of this. But 508 listen, this is not a perfect world. And what it comes down to human beings and the way they think and the way they feel and what moves them in their soul and in their gut.