August 4, 1994 - Part 13
August 4, 1994 - Part 13
(00:40:40) Senator BRYAN. If your performance that afternoon on the 2nd of February was anything akin to what it has been this evening, I believe Mr. Altman reached that conclusion. Mr. NUSSBAUM. He also said in his speech at the moment of his death as he goes over to the river on the other side Senator BRYAN and Mr. NUSSBAUM [simultaneously]. "Be the corps of the corps of the corps." Senator BRYAN. I think that's what Mr. Altman was thinking but I think he was thinking of a different corps. [Laughter.] Mr. NUSSBAUM. Touche, Senator. Senator BRYAN. Let me ask you this one question, if I may, because you go on in this powerful discourse to describe that, generally speaking, and I'm paraphrasing, and if I do violence to the paraphrase, please correct me because I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but you're saying, generally speaking, pending adju dicative or investigative matters, that, generally speaking, contacts are not desirable. Mr, NUSSBAUM. Correct. Senator BRYAN. That's not the thing. But you say that there should be no flat prohibition. Mr. NUSSBAUM. That Is also correct. Senator BRYAN. You go on to say we recognize that a contact may be necessary to enable the White House to discharge its official functions. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Correct. Senator BRYAN. Give me an example, not in the context of the Madison issue as it relates to Mr. Altman, but I'm interested in your thought process. Give me a couple of thought processes where you think it may be justified. Mr. NUSSBAUM. A senior Congressman is a subject of a major investigation, on the verge of being indicted, and the President is dealing with him on significant public policy issues. I don't think the President should read about that indictment in the newspapers, if and when that indictment comes down. I think there's a situation where the White House can have contact. Or a senior Cabinet official is under serious investigation, with respect to possible misconduct, either while a Cabinet member or prior to being a Cabinet member. 506 so the President can be informed, on a confidential basis, that one of his Cabinet officers may be indicted or one of his senior political allies in the Congress may be indicted. The President then call shape his own conduct with respect to how to deal with that person or persons. Ile's certainly not entitled to tell the Attorney General or anybody else, stop the investigation. I don't want this person indicted, he's helpful to me on this issue or that issue. But at least he'll know what's coming. He shouldn't be blindsided in that respect. Those are some of the examples that may occur. This, I recog- nize, is a more sensitive issue that we're discussing here because this is an investigation, at least by February, and involved the President or potentially the President himself. We already had an Independent Counsel. We get an RTC civil proceeding. In September and October, it wasn't that sensitive because the President was just a potential witness at that point, But even there, historical precedent shows that contacts are appropriate. Mr. Cutler's article points out and Senator Dodd, at the beginning of these hearings, read from a Subcommittee report with respect to contacts that the Attorney General Civiletti had with the President with respect to Billy Carter, Senator Dodd, when he made that statement, he said, "Well, it may not be quite analogous." Of course, he's right. It's not totally analogous because you had foreign affairs. You had Libya, On the other hand, you had the President's brother, family member. When we received a contact in September and October 1993, the President wasn't a target. He was just a witness. So in some ways, the contact that was made with respect to Billy Carter was much more sensitive than the contact that was made in September and October 1993 And yet, a bipartisan Subcommittee this Senate, as Senator Dodd read, I'm not going to read it, it's contained in Mr, Cutler's article, found that contact perfectly appropriate. For the same reason, I believe, these contacts were perfectly appropriate. They helped perform legitimate official functions. I've taken a long-winded way of answering your question, Senator. Senator BRYAN. Good evening, Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Bryan. Senator Boxer.