August 4, 1994 - Part 13
August 4, 1994 - Part 13
(00:30:05) Now, there's a lot of testimony to that, and I know you don't agree with it but there's a lot of testimony that he went there al- ready committed in his mind to recuse himself, The Legal Counsel for that agency, Ms. Kulka, she even said, "I can't understand why he isn't resigning." The Legal Counsel for the Department of the, Treasury, which has more of a relationship to him and a relation-, ship more unburdened by other things, she told him that he should recuse himself. Secretary Bentsen indicates he should recuse him- self so the one person that changes this, as I see it, is You, al- though I would think that perhaps Harold Ickes was agreeing With you. I would assume that some of the other people in that room might have been agreeing with you, if not verbally, clearly they weren't 503 taking his side of this. But let me tell you, you've got to understand what bothers us, and it's not just your duty to serve notion. I mean, this man was working with the First Lady on Health Care. He knew that she was very burdened by this Whitewater matter. He was close to the President, although perhaps not as close as some people may have been saying. But now he is going to be impressed because you speak for the White House and everything that it stands for. And essentially, I'm not prepared to conclude tonight that you are the sole reason for his changing his mind and thus putting us in this predicament where for days we're trying to find out what happened, what's behind all this. Maybe we might conclude tonight that it was your advice to him that's behind this and he never even bothered to be as simple as that, that you convinced him as a representative of the President. Frankly, from everything I can glean here, you are a significant part of why he didn't do what in hindsight it seems very, very much the case that he really should have done. It would have been in the interest of the President and the Presidency, which you are so concerned about protecting. I don't have any quibble with your deep concern about duty; I think that's an admirable quality. We don't hear it enough in the United States anymore. But I don't think that's the sole reason why he should recuse himself. Legal duty isn't the only reason. Ethical duty might not be the only reason. But, frankly, I think it was not ethical for you to tell him that, in fact, he should stay on when there are many other concepts that should have been considered. Now you can respond and use as much time as I have left. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Senator, obviously I respect your view. I don't agree with you. I profoundly disagree with your view. It seems I disagree with views on both sides of the aisle. There's an evenhandedness about this. Senator, he told me he was not legally or ethically required to recuse himself He told me he had an opinion to that effect from an ethics advisor. That opinion was then confirmed later in February with two other opinions. Senator, when that happens, when that comes into play, once you make that assumption-maybe you don't want to make that assumption-you don't really want to make the assumption that he wasn't legally or ethically required to recuse himself, but just make it with me for a moment because that's what he told me and that's what his ethics advisor told him. Once you've made that assumption, then your duty to do your duty comes into play and now, the OGE, the Office of Government Ethics, a nonpartisan group headed by a person-respected person appointed by President Bush agrees with me and doesn't agree, with all due respect, with a number of the Senators here tonight. What it says, and what I quote on page 13, in effect, is that if a person-it says this: That if a person has no legal or ethical obligation to recuse himself, then that person has to act, has to do their duty. That is how I look at it. That's how the OGE looks at it. That's how the ethics advisors, I think, to Deputy Secretary Altman looked at it. It's not how you look at it. It's not how Mr, Cutler looks at it. It's not how Secretary Bentsen looks at it. Maybe I 504 think I'm right. You think you're right. History will determine who is right.