August 4, 1994 - Part 13
August 4, 1994 - Part 13
(00:20:23) Senator KERRY. Now, ethically, my other colleagues have talked about some of that, and I point, as they have, to a very, very clear statement in your own standard that you have read to this Con,. mittee tonight, and this morning. The standard you gave us is it will result in an appearance of conflict. Now you cite to us these other groups that have made a finding. I've read every one of their statements. I found them wanting. Because they, like you, stuck with-just stuck to the legalese and this is not a business just about legalese. You know, some Senators refuse PAC money. Some Senators don't take gifts. Some Senators never took honoraria. The law didn't require it, but people perceived what you have cited as a higher standard. I respectfully say to you that not to have been sensitive, ethically, to both the friendship, and no one has mentioned this, but also to the fact that everybody in this town talked about Mr. Altman as potential future Secretary of the Treasury. For him to walk into the White House after everyone he talked to had helped him make up his mind to recuse himself and it was their opinion and his that he should recuse himself, you should have said Roger, fine, it's your decision. But no, you're sitting here saying I kept telling him the bottom line was it was his decision, but a whole bunch of stuff comes in between from his boss, from his White House. So any sensitive employee to the future is going to be saying well, gee, they don't really want me to do this. Now, Senator Shelby said to you it was a mauling. I'm not going to characterize it as a mauling. I don't know what it was. All I know is this public employee had made up his mind to recuse himself. The people who worked for him thought he was going there to do it, He went in there to do it and he told you he was doing it and he came out of there not doing it. That's the bottom line. That's the bottom line. I agree with the Chairman, you should not have done anything. Instead, there was a different opinion. Then, ultimately, this man, after all of this notion of accepting sworn duty, recused himself for The New York Times editorial boy, Howell Rains. Mr. NUSSBAUM. That's right. That's right. Senator KERRY. So this is a serious issue here for this Committee to think about what happened in the context of politics, the ethics, and sort of the legal reasoning that you've given us. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Doesn't that show, Senator, why he recused himself? Senator KERRY. Beg your pardon? Mr. NUSSBAUM. When he recused himself in a conversation with Howell Rains of The New York Times, doesn't that really show Senator KERRY. It shows a lot of things. Mr. NUSSBAUM. It shows that he didn't want the public relations heat that would come from acting in this matter and, Senator Senator KERRY. Mr. Nussbaum, that is where you are ethically failing here because we live with public relations heat every day. It's the bread and butter of our life. 501 Mr. NUSSBAUM. Right, and you should take it. Senator KERRY. And it is a reflection of the public which is what this country is all about. What happened, in this case, is you were dealing with legalese and not a sensitivity to how the public would perceive this, which is ultimately what motivated him to react, which is ultimately what keeps this country straight and true as a democracy. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Senator, you and I have a profound philosophical difference here. Senator KERRY. If you think you could ram down the throats of Americans the notion that there was not somehow an appearance of a problem in his being there given the fact that he had this close relationship, then I think you are just missing the standard by which we're living in this community today. Mr. NUSSBAUM. I'm missing it, the OGE is missing it, his ethics advisors are missing it Senator KERRY. No, because I'll tell you what, if you read the OGE report, the OGE report specifically said they could not rule as to Mr. Altman's behavior with respect to the September 29th transfer and they only ruled, if you'll read page 2, as to the Treasury employees, not the White House employees. Don't throw that report at me again. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Senator Senator KERRY. That's what it says. Mr. NUSSBAUM. It says what it says, Senator, Senator KERRY. I'll read it to you. Could I have the report, please? I mean, let's-you know, you want to say it says what it says. Let me read it to you. Page 2, second paragraph: Because your authority as Secretary of the Treasury relates to employees of the Department, the report of the Inspectors General is necessarily focused upon the activities of officials of the Treasury Department. For that reason our analysis is not intended to cover, nor should it in any way reflect upon, the actions of individuals who are employed by the White House. We could put that in the record at this point.