Reel

August 4, 1994 - Part 12

August 4, 1994 - Part 12
Clip: 460829_1_1
Year Shot: 1994 (Actual Year)
Audio: Yes
Video: Color
Tape Master: 10097
Original Film: 104565
HD: N/A
Location: Dirksen Senate Office Building
Timecode: -

(00:05:28) What I fail to understand, with all due respect to the Senators here because I do have great respect for this Committee and this body, is why people-why I cannot seem to convince anybody or enough people, of the importance of the concept of doing your duty if there is no legal or ethical obligation to recuse yourself. That's what I'm not getting across and I feel so strongly about it, I feel it's the correct policy both in the judicial branch as well as for the Administration and I believe this Committee should support that position, but apparently Im Mr. NUSSBAUM. Senator Senator SHELBY. I want to ask you one last question because my time is running. In this same diary entry and I asked Mr. Eggle- ston---- Mr. NUSSBAUM. Yes. Senator SHELBY [continuing]. One of your associates, at one time, what did he mean by this and he said this is what he meant: Once again they, they the White House, were very concerned about him, Roger, turning the RTC over to people that you didn't know; in other words, you didn't have a relationship with. That's what Mr. Eggleston said right here at this meeting. Do you agree with that? In other words, why not let him recuse himself if you weren't conferenced about who was running the RTC? Mr. NUSSBAUM. No. Senator SHELBY. Somebody that would run down to the White Ouse and clear everything with you? NUSSBAUM. No, no. Senator SHELBY. That's what you were interested in. Senator SHELBY. I disagree with you, but I want to say this: You are an advocate, you're---I might hire you if I needed you as a lawyer, but I sure wouldn't hire you to Bennett won't 496 Mr. NUSSBAUM. No, it wasn't. Senator SHELBY. And it got Mr. Altman and yourself in deep trouble. Mr. NUSSBAUM. For better or worse, Mr. Altman was running RTC at that time. It may have been a mistake in retrospect him have these two hats for so long, I can see that, but for or worse he had the job then and he had no right in my under the policies I've talked about, to duck doing his job unless there was a legal or ethical obligation to recuse himself. Senator SHELBY. There was an ethical obligation and you mauled him and you know it. Mr. NUSSBAUM. There was no ethical obligation because even the OGE found he had no ethical obligation to recuse himself. He had three ethics opinions that he had no legal or ethical obligation to recuse himself Senator SHELBY. You are trying to bolster his confidence or bolster your position with him when he knew inside that he should step down and instead of you walking away from it and saying do what you think is best, basically, you beat up on him and you know you did. You did and you know it, I'm sure you did. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bond. Senator BOND. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Nussbaum, we had an opportunity last year, I believe, to meet under pleasanter circumstances and I trust we may have an opportunity again. Mr. NUSSBAUM. I hope so. Senator BOND. Count me in, though, as one who wholeheartedly endorses the position announced by the Chairman. Mr. NUSSBAUM. I lost another vote. Senator BOND. That's true. Mr. Nussbaum, you're Counsel to the White House, you received information on the nine criminal referrals. Also receiving them were other people in the White House. As Counsel, what directions did you give them about that information and how they should act on it? Mr. NUSSBAUM. What directions did I give other people at the White House? Senator BOND. Yes, you got hot stuff. Criminal referrals, nonpublic information. What did you tell them? Mr. NUSSBAUM. I told them that we received this information, there's going to be a leak. We should prepare ourselves to respond to that leak, that's what I told them. Senator BOND. That's the sum and substance? Mr. NUSSBAUM. That is the sum and substance, yes, sir. Senator BOND. You didn't have any concern that you ought to tell them not to share it with anybody, you ought to tell them that they should not destroy documents? Mr. Lindsey said he talked to Mr. Lyons, a political ally of the President, and they discussed the criminal referral. You know what Mr. Roelle said when he was before us, Mr. Roelle said that he warned Ms. Hanson not to tell the White House because that's where it would leak. When you got that nonpublic information, any Counsel worth his salt would tell the people that you got nonpublic information. Number one, you can't share it with people who don't have a legitimate Government 497 interest-I should note I don't agree with you that you had a legitimate Government interest. Number two, you can't do anything to destroy evidence or get rid of any evidence, and I don't think anybody here is willing to tell us under oath that documents didn't disappear, that things weren't altered, that files weren't searched on the basis of the nonpublic information which apparently, according to your testimony, not only did the President know, but it also went to Mr. Lyons. It may well have gone to Governor Tucker; it may have gone to others.