August 4, 1994 - Part 12
August 4, 1994 - Part 12
(00:00:55) And when he said, talking about Roger Altman: going, and he's Mr. Steiner, talking about recusing himself, at a fateful White House meeting-it was fateful. I think it was fateful for Mr. Altman because he backed down. A fateful White House, meeting with Nussbaum, Ickes, and Williams, however, and the White House staff told Roger Altman that it was unacceptable-I think it's probably a mild term, watching you here tonight-unacceptable. I can imagine you-maybe you didn't beat him up because you're not a large man, maybe you didn't beat him up with your fist, but I bet he felt he was mauled when he left out of there and I can see that, And he reacted very-you all reacted very negatively to the recusal and Roger Altman, instead of being a strong man like you are-and you are strong-he backed down the next day and agreed. In other words, he slept on it and he backed down. It was a fateful meeting. And I can see that. But when you say that a man should stay in there and do his duty as a governmental official when he feels inside that he's got a conflict of interest and there was a perception, sir, whether you agree with me or not, there was a perception and I don't know who created this perception, whether Roger Altman created it, he was real close to the President or not, the perception of the currency in the public was that he was close to the President of the United States. I don't know if he was or not. But he came down there to see you because you were Counsel to the President, because you were a strong personality and a lot of roads led to you. I think he was afraid of you. He obviously was. He was afraid. You were a strong man. But he made the wrong decision, and, I believe, Mr. Nussbaum, you helped him make the wrong decision by your strong views here. Just imagine what a mauling he went through. I think it was fateful, fateful for him and I- Mr. NUSSBAUM. Senator, I have known Roger Altman a fair amount of time. I know him from New York, from-he was in the financial business. I'm a trial lawyer, private practice. Roger Altman is not a patsy. Roger Altman may come across in this room Senator SHELBY. I didn't say he was that but I said you were a stronger man and you mauled him there that day. In a figurative--- sure, you did. Mr. NUSSBAUM. I don't agree. I remember that meeting. I didn't', maul him, Senator. I was surprised by the subject, I was careful what I said and I didn't tell him to stay in the case. I told him lie should recuse himself if he was legally or ethically required to do so. I told him he should consider whether or not he should recuse, 495 himself if he. was not legally or ethically required to do so. And I told him the decision was for him and for him alone to make. I don't think that's mauling. I don't think that's pressure. I don't think Roger-I don't think I just rolled over Roger Altman. I'm coming across a little stronger here than I came across in that meeting, although nobody is going to believe that at this point. But I do know what I said and I said the things I just described. Roger is a smart, savvy, tough guy in his own right. He was struggling with this issue, but when somebody comes to me, Senator-and I say this to Senator Bennett and the Chairman and to you-and says, Bernie, I'm going to recuse myself or I'm inclined to recuse myself because I think it's better, the Senate and Secretary Bentsen and Ms. Hanson told me that they agreed that it's better, but my ethics advisor tells me I have no legal or ethical obligation to do so, which means that there is no appearance problem either, because if there's an appearance problem then you can't say you have no legal or ethical obligation to do so, then I see somebody very frankly who is trying to duck doing his duty. And that to me is wrong. If he wants to duck doing his duty, you quit, you don't recuse. You don't recuse de facto, you don't recuse de jure, you do your duty. He had three ethics opinions, three ethics opinions. One be fore he came to me and two he got later on, saying he was not legally or ethically required to do so.