August 4, 1994 - Part 12
August 4, 1994 - Part 12
(23:55:17) That means, Senator, with all respect, that Mr. Altman and his ethics advisor believed that acting in this manner would not raise an appearance of partiality within the meanings of the relevant ethical standards because if, in fact, he made such a judgment, and his ethics advisor made such a judgment then he couldn't come and tell me that he and his ethics advisor believe that there is no ethical or legal reason for him to recuse himself What he said to me, Senator Bennett, is that he talked to Secretary Bentsen and he talked to Ms. Hanson and he thought it was best, what he was conveying to me is not this appearance issue that you refer to. What he was conveying to me that he thought it was politically best, public relations best, that he didn't really want to take the heat. He didn't want us to take the heat. That's what he was saying to me, And that is what I think is wrong. If he made a determination that there was an appearance issue here, then he would have been legally or ethically required to recuse himself, but he did not make such a determination. And this notion about Mr. Altman being a long-time friend of the President, a close personal friend, which is sort of gaining currency 493 here, is also, I believe, incorrect, sir. Mr. Altman went to college with the President 25 years ago. I don't think they were in the same class in college. I don't believe Mr. Altman saw the President between 1968 and 1991, until the President started running for ofIt is true that Mr. Altman was a high Government official in the Administration. That's true, but that doesn't mean he's pre cluded from doing his duty and indeed even if he was a close per- sonal friend of the President's, which I don't believe he is, a close personal friendship is not, under the ethics rules, a covered relationship that requires you to recuse yourself. There were no facts that I knew, and no law that I knew that would in any way indicate that Mr. Altman was wrong when he told me that he was not legally or ethically required to recuse himself. What Mr. Altman was taking was in my view an unprincipled position here, A position contrary to what I believe should be the proper policy for the Executive Branch, Now I know that a lot of people don't agree with me on this thing. Lloyd Cutler doesn't agree with me. Lloyd Bentsen doesn't agree with me. Ms. Hanson doesn't agree with me. You don't agree with me. Chairman Riegle doesn't agree with me, A lot of people don't agree. I lose a vote in :this Committee at this time. But I believe I'm right in this thing. Senator BENNETT, Obviously you do and I won't beat the dead horse any more. I'll simply say for all of my earlier statements of admiration for you which I do not back away from, I will not consult you if I ever get in a circumstance where I need advice on this issue. Thank you. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Maybe I'm not the most politically astute person in the world, Senator Bennett, except I happen to believe the best politics is to do your duty, to stand. up for what's right and when people come at you and attack as they will, political opponents or newspapers, you explain yourself, you defend your position. To me that is the best politics also, but a lot of people don't agree with me about that either, The CHAIRMAN. Senator Shelby, Senator SHELBY. Thank you. Mr. Nussbaum, you obviously-I never met you until tonight that I recall. I knew what you were doing at the White House as the Counsel, as White House Counsel, is that the proper term? Mr. NUSSBAUM. Yes, sir. Senator SHELBY. White House Counsel. You are obviously a man of strong opinions and there is nothing wrong with that. Strong personality. I would contrast you in my own mind with Mr. Altman sitting there and so forth. But I've got some problems and I want to follow up with something and I disagree with you on this, too, and I was going to ask a similar question that Senator Bennett got into, On page 13 and I had circled this earlier and I'm going to go back into it. "Or will result"-talking about conduct-- "or will result in an appearance of conflict significantly detrimental to the public's"-"to the public's legitimate perception of the fairness of governmental process." Well, that's what a lot of that was about, what is the perception of this. Mr. Altman, I believe, was on the right track, but he's not as strong as you are as far as personality. Why does he come to 494 the White House? Obviously a lot of trails led right to you you know, you were the Counsel to-White House Counsel. He Was down there and he was asking you about this. The diary here of Mr. Steiner and I think it's instructive now in a lot-to a large de- gree, and I can imagine just in my own mind and I think other peo- ple could seeing you tonight, seeing your demeanor as-you're' a trial lawyer and we do this, we carry our own common sense into