August 4, 1994 - Part 12
August 4, 1994 - Part 12
(23:45:12) Senator DODD. I guess I don't have to ask about the February 2nd meeting, now do I? Let me run down there, This is a-the dates, September 29th, October 14th, February 2nd, February 3rd, 490 the 24th, March 1st, these are all the dates we've been hearing about now for the last 5 or 6 days. It's obviously the brackets here in time. We've heard a lot of people talk about where they clearly felt significant mistakes and bad judgment calls occurred. My own view is that the contacts, there were so many and too many people, were sloppy, The March 1st and 3rd ones, I thought, were irresponsible, to put it mildly, in terms of not getting back when there was clearly debate over what was said, and what was not said at this Committee's hearing on the 24th. I think that the whole notion of two hats, as Senator Sarbanes just said, invited its own set of problems. I'd like you quickly-because I see the light on here-but quickly to go back down here and identify where you think the principal mistakes were made. If you could redo this thing, where were the major mistakes made, where should we as a Committee be looking to say here are the things that should have been done differently? Mr. NUSSBAUM. Let me tell you there are two areas. One, as I said in my statement, we made mistakes in the White House. Mr. Cutler's report indicates some of those mistakes. There were too many meetings, too many people. I wrote a series of memos designed to prevent contacts between people in the White House and other agencies-regulatory, independent, Department of Justice, Department of the Treasury-with respect to investigative matters. I didn't want people from the White House communicating with any other agencies with respect to those matters unless the Counsel's Office was involved so we could make sure that it was an official, proper, public purpose. That system, I believed, worked well, by and large, from January 20, 1993, until about February 2, 1994. It broke down. It broke down, to some extent, in February 1994 when too many people in the White House were having too many conversations with people over at Treasury and RTC, with respect to this matter, without Counsel present. I should have been more vigilant and more alert and I take some of the responsibility, maybe most of the responsibility, for that. It broke down, Mr. Cutler's proposed rules with respect to all conversations shall just be Counsel to Counsel on these issues and no one else is involved, when there are issues with regard to investigations or adjudication, is a good rule. It means, now, even if Counsel is present you can't have such a conversation. The conversation has to be only Counsel to Counsel because if you have other people in on the meetings, then they think they can go out and talk on their own. So Mr. Cutler's suggestion is a good suggestion. That's where we made one mistake, which I'm sorry about, which Mr. Cutler and others in the White House I'm sure will correct as they should correct. There is one other area I must throw out to you that this Committee should exercise oversight and it would be hard to do things, and that is these enormous leaks that come out of these agencies, the RTC particularly, which are under your oversight supervision. Something must be done with respect to that issue. This is a serious problem in the United States, these leaks that come out of RTC and come out of other agencies, Department of Justice, U.S. Attorney's offices around the country from time to time., This is a serious 491 problem in our society and part of the reason we had these meetings was basically to defend ourselves against this kind of thing. This doesn't justify doing everything or anything because somebody is leaking but nonetheless, this is a serious problem. When you get a good man like Louie Freeh to head the FBI and he announces a policy that there shall be no leaks, anybody who is ,caught leaking will be fired-that's what I believe Director Freeh has said-I think he's going to take control over the Bureau in that sense and prevent leaks. That can be done by him. I I think Janet Reno is trying to make efforts in the Department of Justice, too. But there are too many agencies with investigative responsibilities such as the RTC, which do leak. Too many innocent people are hurt. And that is something this Committee, I think, with all due respect should consider. senator DODD, Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Dodd. senator Bennett. Senator BENNETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You're quite a refreshing personality, Mr. Nussbaum.