August 4, 1994 - Part 12
August 4, 1994 - Part 12
(23:40:18) Senator DODD. You've been very candid with us and I think most of us like candor. All of us know the feelings when someone has been at cross-hairs with us politically, and all of a sudden we hear they're about to get a position and to be in a position of some influence and how we all react. I think everyone at this table, whether we agreed with what Mr. Stephanopoulos did or not-I'm not certain he does even-could certainly appreciate his reaction to the notion that Jay Stephens was going to be on the case. I don't think there is a Member at this dais who doesn't sympathize with those personal feelings because we've all been there. The question that I'm raising in a sense is you were candid enough to express to us your concern about Ms. Kulka, given the previous history with the law firm that you represented, and the reasons why. I'm asking whether or not that in any way was going to cause you or the White House in some way to interfere with her being Mr. NUSSBAUM. No. Senator DODD [continuing]. Approved for the job of handling the case with the RTC. Mr. NUSSBAUM. No. By the time I learned about Ms. Kulka on February 2nd, she was already hired as was Mr. Ryan and once I learned they were hired, even though I asked about our processes) I took not a single step to try in any way to unhire them. Senator DODD. OK let me go back Mr. NUSSBAUM. I acted with them just the way I acted with re- Spect to Mr. Stephens-when I learned about Mr, Stephens, when I did go a little bit ballistic internally in the White House. Some- body used the term about me so I'll use it about myself Senator DODD. We don't know anyone on this Committee that goes ballistic, I want to tell you, We don't have that problem in the Senate I want you to know. [Laughter.] Mr. NUSSBAUM. Even with respect to Mr. Stephens, I said we would and should not do anything about it. Senator DODD. I don't know which evening it was now that there's been so many of these--but Senator Sarbanes I thought 489 asked a very good line of questioning and I'm trying to recall, maybe it was of Mr. Altman, maybe it was of Mr. Steiner, I can't recall who it was. This is a very important meeting for this Senator anyway, the meeting of September 29th, because it relates to Mr. Altman's testimony before the Committee on the 24th on this conflict we have between what Ms. Hanson remembers as to why she was at the Waco meeting and what her job was to do there in terms of her discussing the matter of the referrals with you. What Senator Sarbanes' line of questioning had to do with is this; is Ms. Hanson or was Ms. Hanson the kind of person that would have initiated that kind of a discussion on her own. Senator Sarbanes can interrupt me if I don't ask this correctly, but given the fact that she was General Counsel there, and obviously had a line of authority but certainly moved around, you said you'd met with her, I think, a number of other times, talked to her a number of times. Is it inconceivable that Ms. Hanson could have had this conversation with you without being directed by Mr. Altman, if she had acquired the information directly from someone else and not Mr. Altman? Mr. NUSSBAUM. That's a tough question. I don't Senator DODD. Do you understand the importance of it? Mr. NUSSBAUM. Oh, I understand the importance of it. Sort of a fight I want to stay out of right now. Senator DODD. You'll get a lot of allies. Mr. NUSSBAUM. It's-the answer is I don't know, I have great respect actually for both of them. I have respect for Mr. Altman, I've known him a while, I don't agree with everything he's done, but I have great respect for him. But I also have come to know Ms. Hanson to some extent, and I have great respect for her. I think she's- Senator DODD. Was your relationship The CHAIRMAN. I'm sorry. What were you going to say? You think Mr. NUSSBAUM, I think she's a woman of integrity and forthrightness and she's a good person. I mean I dealt with her a number of occasions when she was General Counsel of the Treasury and I was White House Counsel, so I have great respect for both these people and obviously there is some sort of conflict between them with respect to their recollection. Maybe he doesn't remember and she does remember it, maybe they're both telling the truth. That's what I hope is happening. Senator DODD, Let me ask you one more question. I think you've answered it to the best of your ability. But you knew her well enough that she wouldn't necessarily have been in awe of you and your position at the White House, she would have been comfortable based on previous relationships to bring up a subject matter with without having authority from someone else to raise it with .,;."You? Is that a fair statement? Mr. NUSSBAUM. Yes, I agree with that. I'm not saying that happened here but I agree, yes. She wouldn't have been in awe of me. I didn't find very many people in Government in awe of me.