August 4, 1994 - Part 12
August 4, 1994 - Part 12
(23:35:26) Mr. NUSSBAUM. Just because somebody is named in a criminal referral as a potential target does not mean-this is from my experience from private practice-does not mean that that person will be indicted, something-you know, very few of the criminal referrals result in indictments down the line. If in fact somebody is on the verge of being indicted, then I think it would be incredible to let the President meet with that person, but merely the fact that somebody is mentioned in a criminal referral doesn't mean you say 487 to the President, you shouldn't meet with the Governor of your home State. I don't think that is the right thing to do. In any event, I played no role in that decision at that time. I don't remember it at that time. I didn't know about the meeting really. But I don't think I would have done anything about it even if I did know about the meeting. So I don't want to try to duck by saying I didn't know about the meeting. Senator MACK, Well, again, Mr. Nussbaum, first of all, I'm not an attorney so I'm not going to engage you in a discussion about whether that was something some other attorney would have done, but I must say to you, I really do find it hard to believe, (A) that you didn't have the information; and (B) you were unaware that the President was going to have the meeting. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Senator Mack, Congressman Rostenkowski was under investigation. Everybody knew it publicly. Do you think the President of the United States shouldn't have met with Congressman Rostenkowski to discuss Health Care and taxes merely because he was under a criminal investigation? You know Senator MACK. Wait just a minute. I think there is a distinction. We're talking about a case that potentially could involve the President with the Governor of Arkansas. Mr. NUSSBAUM. No, I don't think it Senator MACK. There was definitely a suggestion that they might be witnesses, there is a connection there. Mr. NUSSBAUM. The President was-the President was potentially a witness with respect to certain campaign contributions that went from Madison to the President's gubernatorial campaign. I didn't understand any connection between a possible case against Governor Tucker and the President. I think the Rostenkowski analogy is correct. Somebody is under investigation, something may occur, the President has to deal with political figures who may be under investigation. He shouldn't tell them anything about the investigation. He shouldn't discuss it if he knows anything about the investigation, but to say he shouldn't meet with him, Governor of his home State? I don't think that's the correct judgment to make. Senator MACK. Thank you, Mr. Nussbaum. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Dodd. Senator DODD. Mr, Nussbaum, let me turn to page 16 of your prepared statement this evening. Let me, first of all, say thank you for being here tonight. It just struck me as you were going through this-am I on the right page? Here I may not be. Let me just ask the question. After the February 2nd meeting I understood you to say that you asked some people, possibly Ms. Hanson, whether or not Ms. Kulka and Mr. Ryan's names had been submitted to the White House for clearance. Mr. NUSSBAUM. That's correct. Senator DODD. The thought that occurred to me when that in your statement was whether or not you expressed to either--I don't know who you had that conversation with, I've forgotten who you said you did. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Ms. Hanson. 488 Senator DODD. Ms. Hanson. Did you raise at the time any suggestion by just even raising the issue that the White House should somehow not consider these people because of Mr. NUSSBAUM. No, no, I didn't. I knew they were appointed. The)-, reason I said it at the time was I was worried about our processes. I thought that, as nominations came through for these kind of positions, the White House Counsel's Office would normally vet them play a role with them, give advice with respect to them. I have- for' example, personal knowledge-I didn't tell it to Ms. Hanson, other than I said I knew Ms. Kulka was a tough OTS litigator. Senator DODD. That's the reason I raised it. Mr. NUSSBAUM. If I would have known Ms. Kulka was being nominated for something I would have said she should to be looked at. You know, I ran into her in a case peripherally, I didn't know her I never met her in my life I don't want to overstate this, but she should be looked at. Our processes didn't seem to be function- ing well because I'd never heard of it and nobody in my office ever heard of it. That's why I asked Ms. Hanson whether or not the names were submitted to the White House.