August 4, 1994 - Part 12
August 4, 1994 - Part 12
(23:20:44) Mr. NUSSBAUM, That's correct, sir. Senator SARBANES. Now, why was Altman shopping the decision about recusal with people at the White House, do you know? Mr. NUSSBAUM. No, I really don't. I think-I can speculate-I hate to do this-but I think-maybe I'm affected in part by watch- ing his testimony-I think he was generally troubled and unde- cided as to what to do. I understand that there's also evidence, and I'm looking at the Chairman when I say this, too, that he decided the day before. I understand it was in his talking points. I didn't know it at the time. I didn't know he had talking points when he was sitting at the February 2nd meeting. It was a Washington thing I learned about when I got to Washington. People don't 1 0 to meetings without talking points. But I think he was genuinely confused or searching to us for advice. 483 Senator SARBANES. Did he raise the issue in terms of I'm thinking of recusing myself, what do people think? Mr. NUSSBAUM. He didn't quite say it like that but what he said was, he was strongly inclined to recuse himself I think Ms. Hanson remembers that he said to us that he would recuse himself. I don't remember it like that, Senator Sarbanes. I remember him saying I'm strongly inclined to recuse myself and it just came out of the blue. I'm not saying it's an excuse. If it's improper to have this discussion, I shouldn't have had this discussion. Mr. Cutler's point of view is similar to the Chairman's point of view, at least in some respects it's similar. He disagrees with me. He agrees with the Chairman here. But nonetheless, it came out of the blue. He sort of said it and he sort of waited for us to respond. And since I'm usually a big talker, I'm the only one who responded. The CHAIRMAN. He didn't have to wait long, did he? Mr. NUSSBAUM. I say this to Senator Sarbanes and the Chairman, but I'm disproving it today by my testimony and my actions, I think I was really fairly calm at that meeting. I know no one believes this anymore. Senator D'AMATO. I do. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Thank you, Senator D'Amato. I really chose my words carefully and I really tried to act carefully because the subject took me by surprise and, therefore, I didn't have time to consider all the implications. Having considered it, I'm not apologetic one wit, as people here can tell, about what I did, but I was careful because it did take me by surprise. I think it would have been appropriate for me to tell him, Roger, you have no business recusing yourself if there's no legal or ethical obligation to do so, but I did not say that. I admit I didn't appear happy. I didn't embrace him or kiss him or anything like that when he announced this thing. I may have appeared cold, but I didn't tell him to remain on the case. I said three things. I said, one, if you're legally or ethically Obligated to recuse yourself, do so. But two, if you're not, please consider whether or not it's appropriate to do so. And I said, three, Mr. Chairman--Senator Sarbanes is still questioning, but I'm still thinking in exchange with the Chairman -I said three, it's up to you. In the final analysis it's your decision and your decision to make. If that's butting in, if that's pressuring him, if that's leading him in, let other people make that interpretation. I happen to think it's not. Senator SARBANES. Was Altman in and out of the White House frequently? Mr. NUSSBAUM. Yes, he was in and out of the White House fre- quently. Senator SARBANES. I want to know how the White House ever al- lowed Altman to go on wearing two hats for such a long period of time, or let me put the question to you this way: If Altman had not been the Deputy Secretary of the Treasury but the acting head of the---the head of the RTC, in other words above----that was his job. He didn't have a second job as Deputy Secretary of the Treasury, and he were in and out of the White House as often as he was as Deputy Secretary of the Treasury. And you know, you've perceived him as the head of the RTC handling these matters and he reaised the recusal issue, would you have perceived him differently? 484