August 4, 1994 - Part 12
August 4, 1994 - Part 12
(23:15:39) Mr. NUSSBAUM. Mr. Chairman The CHAIRMAN. So we both have made our statements. Mr. NUSSBAUM. One further point if I can, Mr. Chairman. I'm very grateful to you for permitting me to engage in this dialogue with you. This notion about the RTC being an independent agency as if it's some Executive Branch agency. The head of the RTC is appointed by the President, and he serves subject to confirmation by the Senate and he serves at the pleasure of the President. It is not an independent agency like the SEC or agencies like that. It really doesn't fall into that category, but I'm not sure that makes a big difference here. The CHAIRMAN. Wait a second. Mr. NUSSBAUM. I don't want to pin The CHAIRMAN. But you've made that point and you've put it on the record, and I want to challenge that point. Once the appointment is made of someone to head that agency, that does not create a continuing ability for the President or the President's lawyer to reach into that agency in any way, shape or form. I'm asking you to think about it because that's where the line is and I think you crossed the line on both counts, and that's part of the reason we've got this problem and it's why we're here. I don't say it to say that you had some intention to create a problem for anybody or that you had any improper motive. I'm not saying that at all. In fact, I'm saying that I don't believe that but I think what You did here was wrong on those two counts, and it helped set in motion these chain of events which has caused this position. 482 Mr. NUSSBAUM. I understand your position, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Senator DAmato. Senator DAMATO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, let me say that this is not pleasant. Mr. Nussbaum is a fierce advocate in the highest and finest tradition. There's no doubt in my mind it was that fierce advocacy, not only on behalf of the President, but also the President's Office as well, and I understand your contentions. I've read your deposition as well as your statement tonight. I'm in total agreement as it relates to the Chairman's statements of moving over the line. I have to tell you, there's no doubt in my mind Mr. Altman was under pressure. He felt it. He talked about it. It was written about. It's been reported. We can quibble with the nuances of how it came about, but it did. And by the way, I have to make an assessment here that at least Bernard Nussbaum tells you where he stands. Came in here like a man. Stood up. I disagree with him, but I have to tell you, that's one thing; reasonable people can have disagreement. But, I think he told us exactly what he felt and I don't quarrel with that. I don't question the way he felt. I don't question his motivations. It brought us to this point. But there's one other person, at least one other person, I think others have come in also with less than clear positions and tried to save the day for Roger the Dodger. What a gutless wonder, right down to this day. This is a man who will have you believe that everybody else did it. He wasn't responsible for anything. Oh, not Roger the Dodger. This lawyer did it and that lawyer did it and the other one did it and he didn't know. I have to tell you that he's got an excuse. He's got people who should have told him what to say and they didn't tell him, they nodded, didn't nod. It's just incredible. But there is no further point and no useful purpose, I believe, to make further inquiry of this witness, He at least comes forth and sets forth his position, clearly. We have differences in the record, there's no doubt, but I don't see any useful purpose, Mr. Chairman, in this Senator making further inquiry. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator D'Amato. Senator Sarbanes. Senator SARBANES. Thank you, very much, Mr. Chairman. I actually would like to put a few questions to Mr. Nussbaum. First of all, it's Altman who came to the White House and raised the recusal matter, the White House didn't go to him; is that correct?