August 4, 1994 - Part 12
August 4, 1994 - Part 12
(23:10:47) Mr. NUSSBAUM. I know but The CHAIRMAN. I think you're demonstrating the very thing that probably happened in that meeting. I was very tempted to interrupt your statement. I didn't do so. Mr. NUSSBAUM. I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman. I apologize. The CHAIRMAN. No, but--I'm not taking it personally. I think it's an illustration of your exuberance, having the kind of effect I Suspect it had on Mr. Altman at the time because he obviously-he agonized about this decision. He didn't want to displease people. He didn't want people to react negatively to this decision. I think there's plenty that suggests that and I think he got a pretty good dose from you, but that was a time when he was an independent head of an agency, at least in the capacity that he was in there, that you should have respected that difference. Despite the fact that you had strongly held views, that you're a highly competent lawyer, that you had a strong opinion, you had a strong opinion on Ms. Kulka as well, I think that was one time when you should have kept it to yourself. I think it had no part in these considerations and should not have had. I don't think that was relevant whatsoever to what should have gone on here. The fact it might have been up in your head, I think you were in a different role, in a different capacity and you ought to have restrained yourself from interfering in that decision. I think you did interfere with it, and my own judgment is you affected it and I think that was wrong. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Can I respond, Mr. Chairman? The CHAIRMAN. Yes, please. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Mr. Chairman, I was Counsel to the President. I was Counsel to the President, acting in a offlicial capacity. I was a senior Executive Branch official. What Mr. Altman was suggesting touched on an important Executive Branch policy, what I believe should be an Executive Branch policy and is an Executive Branch policy. An Executive Branch official has a duty to do his duty unless he's legally or ethically required to recuse himself. This affects all Executive Branch officials. We were handling the Tigert nomination. What Mr. Altman was suggesting would have had an effect on that nomination. I was acting in my role as a senior Executive Branch official in order to get him to consider whether or not he should do something which might adversely impact that important policy. Mr. Chairman, with all respect, I understand you feel strongly about it and I'm starting to feel some pressure also--it goes both ways in this, Mr. Chairman. Nonetheless, I felt that I was doing my duty in saying to him, Roger, just consider whether or not you should recuse yourself if you're not legally or ethically required to do so. This is a policy that affects the entire Executive Branch, What he was suggesting was something I believe to be totally unprincipled, wrong. And I'm entitled, as one Executive Branch official to another Executive Branch official, to consider whether he should do that. That is my job and that is my duty. 481 I understand, Mr. Chairman, that we disagree and maybe other Members of the Committee agree with You and don't agree with me. But I thought, Mr. Chairman, that I was doing my job. I thought, Mr. Chairman, I was acting in a principled manner. I thought, Mr. Chairman, I was acting on behalf of the Presidency, in the President's official capacity. I was not doing it, Mr. Chairman, to affect the private interest of the President. I was not doing it for that reason. I was not doing it, Mr. Chairman, because I held some negative feelings about Ms. Kulka at that time. I was not doing it. I was doing it to enforce or to support an important principle, which I believe exists and which I hope you believe exists, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. But even if you were right on the principle, it would have been somebody else's job to present that point to him, not yours, because you were there representing the President of the United States. This is an independent agency. This is the acting head of an agency announcing his intention to make a decision, and you put yourself right square in the middle of it. You went butting right into it. I'm telling you my view. I don't think you should have done it. I don't care how strongly you felt about it. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Strong feelings, Mr. Chairman The CHAIRMAN. I'm talking about strength of feeling based on the merit of your argument, Mr. NUSSBAUM. I was about to acknowledge, strong feelings on my part do not justify conduct on my part. It's not that I felt strongly about it. I felt this was the proper thing to do. The CHAIRMAN, What I'm saying to you is, I think you were wrong. I think it was improper on both those grounds.