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August 2, 1994 - Part 11
(00:50:36) Senator GRAMM. I just thought that you needed two points of information. Number one, Mr. Ickes, who was at every meeting, forwards this document to the First Lady, so clearly he believed in its veracity. Second, we didn't Senator KERRY. I understand. We're going to have ample--listen, I think, Senator, I've been as interested in anybody in pursuing that line of questioning and we're going to have a lot of chance to get at it. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bennett. Senator BENNFTT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a few loose ends, Mr. Altman, and I promise that they ,have nothing to do with anything we've talked about before as the Mair requested. Let me review your answer to a question from Senator Bond at the February bearing. It's on page 40 of the hearings. Trust me to read it accurately. It says: 540 Senator BOND. Mr. Altman are there special measures taken in the resolution Of a failed thrift when you find it to be affiliated with a high Profile individual, some- one in Government, for example? Mr. ALTMAN. The procedure, Senator, which the RTC follows are intended to be identical in each case, and they certainly have been identical in the case discussed this morning. Is that still your opinion? Mr. ALTMAN. Is the question about the safeguarding of documents? Senator BENNETT. No. The question is "Are there special meas- ures taken in the resolution of the failed thrift when you find it to be affiliated with a high profile individual, someone in Govern. ment, for example?" Your answer , then, was-, 'The procedure, Senator, which the RTC follows are intended to be identical in each case, and they certainly have been identical in the case discussed, this morning. Do you stand by that answer? Mr. ALTMAN. I do. Senator BENNETT. Let me read to you from Ms. Hanson's deposition: "I spoke to Mr. Curtis and I was told that although typically it is customary for criminal referrals to be sent directly from the regional office to the Department of Justice, if the referral involves people of prominence or relates to issues of national significance, then it would be customary for the referral to go to Washington in the first instance." Now, you were the Chief Executive Officer of the RTC. Were you aware of this special procedure? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't believe so, Senator. Senator BENNETT. New York Times, July 26, alleges that and an aide "tried to set up a system so they can be informed in advance of sensitive matters at the agency." Further, Mr. Gerth of the Times quotes Mr. Katsanos as saying, "Mr. Altman was interested in being consulted on major or politically sensitive matters." Did you or one of your aides try to set up an early warning system for political figures? Mr. ALTMAN. I'm going to take a moment to answer that question, Senator, because I'm glad you asked it. I've taken a lot of heat over the past week or so, on this matter. It's been misreported from the beginning. It's still being misreported. I never asked to be kept abreast of any investigation or any case, despite what the press has said. All I asked was that, from the point of view of the press, I be alerted to any decision just before it's released which could have major press potential or major leak potential. Just before it's released. Don't involve me in the decision, I don't want to get involved in the investigation, but before you release it, a day before or something, please let me know because I may start getting inquiries about it. That's all that I asked. I think that's a very reasonable thing to have done and all this criticism of the past week or 8 days is based on an erroneous presumption. Senator BENNETT. So the quotation attributed to Mr. Katsanos is either inaccurate or if it's an accurate quotation, Mr. Katsanos is inaccurate? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't quite know what be meant. I'm just telling you--I just tried to tell you what the reality was and if he meant that I asked to be kept abreast of any investigation or any inner workings of a case, he he's got it wrong. 541 Senator BENNETT. Does that include-and this is outside the scope of this resolution so you could decline to answer it if you'd like, but to give you the opportunity, since you said you were pleased that I raised it, would that include the case involving Congressman Jefferson? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't believe I ever asked to be briefed on where the case stood involving Congressman Jefferson. No, I don't. That's my best recollection.
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The first public flight of the YK-12 at Edwards Air Force Base, California. This is the jet interceptor, the existence of which was revealed by President Johnson last February. A revelation meant to answer critics who said the United States was falling behind in manned jet air fighters. The new airplane carries a deadly air-to air missile and is said to be the highest flying and fastest jet known to exist. It's top speed is said to be 2,500 miles per hour. It can reach an altitude of one-hundred-thousand feet. (This aircraft appears to be a prototype for the SR-71 "Blackbird" reconnaissance plane.) Over the head shot of the YK-12 sitting on the tarmac. Below the wing on the Interceptor sits a missile. Two of the pilots dressed up and it appears to be Lieutenant Robert Stevens and his co-pilot. Two pilots climbing up the steps and climb into the Interceptor. Plane is taxing on the runway. A blast of fire comes out of the back and the plane starts to climb becoming air born. Air to Air - The YK-12 Interceptor in flight looking extremely formidable in flight as well as on the ground. The YK-12 landing and the back shoots open,
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Hole in the mountain
Kauai, Hawaii
More Waimea Canyon
Kauai, Hawaii
Waimea Canyon
Kauai, Hawaii
Kalalau Lookout
Kauai, Hawaii
Fireworks Cliff
August 2, 1994 - Part 11
(00:55:34) Senator BENNETT. Now, in your opening statement, you say on page 11 "around that same time, I literally ran into Mr. Nussbaum in a corridor of the White House. He told me the Administration would soon be submitting its' nominee for permanent RTC head." Mr. ALTMAN. I'm sorry, Senator. Senator BENNETT, From your opening statement, "around that same time, I literally ran into Mr. Nussbaum in a corridor of the White House. He told me the Administration would soon be submitting its' nominee for permanent RTC head." Is that still your recollection? Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. Senator BENNETT. You're aware that Mr. Nussbaum has testified that you told him, quoting from Mr. Nussbaum's testimony, "I believe that Mr. Altman told me in late February, in another brief conversation, that a Washington lawyer, Larry Simons, was likely to be nominated to bead the RTC." Mr. ALTMAN. I don't understand that at all, because Mr. Nussbaum had no need to learn that from me. That was already under discussion at great length at the White House. He would have known that without my telling him. Senator BENNETT. Who conducted the Executive search, the White House or the RTC? Mr. ALTMAN. Well, the Treasury and the White House generally work together in terms of the list of candidates and narrowing it down and ultimately selecting Mr. Simons, subject, of course, to background work and vetting and subject to the views of several Senators, Senator D'Amato, Senator Riegle, Senator Dodd, and others whom we thought we should check with. But when I ran into Mr. Nussbaum a day or two before my February 22 testimony, he undoubtedly knew that sometime earlier, Borne considerable time earlier. Senator BENNETT, That confuses me even more. Mr. ALTMAN. I think when he's here-he is coming here, isn't be? Senator BENNETT. Yes. Mr. ALTMAN. I think when he's here--I can't swear to it-he'll clear that up because be didn't find that out the day or two before testimony when we ran into each other. He found that out much earlier, or I think be did. Senator BENNETT. Well, we'll just have to Mr. ALTMAN. Also, Senator, it wasn't my responsibility or, for matter, the Treasury's responsibility to send the nomination Senator BENNETT. All right. We'll just have to straighten that because there's a discrepancy. Your recollection is different on face of the testimony from his recollection. 542 If I could go back just quickly to my earlier questions about being informed about cases, give you one more opportunity to comment on that, would you please distinguish between being advised about ongoing, investigations and being informed about a case being filed Would the system that you've been criticized for in the press' apply to the first instance of ongoing investigations? I think you've indicated that it would apply only to an ongoing ongoing investigation and only at the time it was completed and only so that you could re-spond to the press. What about a case being filed? Mr. ALTMAN. First of all, Senator, I never asked to be kept abreast of any investigation. In other words, where does it stand how does it look? I never asked to be kept abreast of any investiga- tion. I never asked to be kept abreast of an 'ease. What does it look like, what's the outlook, what's the facts? I never asked to be kept abreast of any case. All I asked was that before the RTC released to the press infor- mation that would have a significant potential impact from the press point of view, I'd be alerted to it. Now, I think that's a very reasonable thing to have said an d while I haven't actually checked, I'd be surprised if other agencies didn't have a similar policy. Just simply let me know before you release it, not before you decided it---before you release it so that if I start to get inquiries, I won't be caught short. That's all. Senator BENNETT. As you've described it, I think that is very reasonable. It's not as these other people have described it, and I suppose you'll have a conversation with Mr. Katsanos about that. Mr. ALTMAN. No, I haven't had a conversation with anyone at the RTC. Senator BENNETT. I suppose you will have a conversation with him. Mr. ALTMAN. No, I won't. No. Senator BENNETT. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. ALTMAN. I'm never going to have a conversation with anybody at the RTC again. The CHAIRMAN. I want to just take a moment to review what the outstanding requests are at this time. We've now heard from Senator Bennett and Senator Domenici. Help me if there are any others of you who want to take time. Senator DAmato, you have an interest. Senator Gramm? Anybody on this side? Senator Dodd? Senator DODD. I don't think it's my time. Go ahead. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Dodd will defer to either of you.
Kauai, Hawaii
Na Pali Coast--end of the road
Kauai Island
Wailna River
Kauai Island
Bird of Paradise
Kauai Island
S.S. Luckenbach on reef
Kauai Island
Mt Waialeale
Kauai Island
Dry Cave & rain
Kauai Island
Kauai Fish Pond ***
Kauai Islands
River scenes ***near Lihue
Kauai Island
Fish Pond ***
August 2, 1994 - Part 11
(01:00:47) Senator D'AMATO. OK. Mr. Altman, I want to take you back to February 24. I'm having trouble understanding some things, but maybe not. I'll tell you why. When you were preparing for this hearing, recognizing that the issue of recusal would be brought up, and I talked to you about it the night before, can you tell us why you didn't mention that recusal on the 24th when it was written down in your briefing book? Did Ms. Hanson tell you not to mention the Feb ruary. 2 discussions about recusal? Mr. First of all, Senator, I wasn't asked about recusalYou told me the night before you were going to ask me about it and I don't believe you did. Second, the question I answered from Senator Gramm and maybe I didn't I do the best job answering it but 543 that's what--I tried to do my best, I took to mean communication relating to the RTC investigation of Madison. Now, I've said many times, and I'll say it again, don't think that recusal had any bearin at all on the RTC investigation of Madison. genator DAMATO. You did spend that February 2 meeting, probably the most contentious part of it or the only contentious part, centered around recusal; is that true? Mr. ALTMAN. I think the facts demonstrate that that discussion bad no impact, could not have had any impact. Senator DAMATO. I'm not suggesting that. Mr. ALTMAN. But we could have had a contentious discussion About anything We could have had a contentious discussion about the weather. Senator DAMATO. OK, Mr. Altman. Let me move on. On March 1, Mr. Podesta calls you and he discusses with you our testimony. He suggests to you that it's not accurate and then he specifically goes into the area. He says, "I think that we were concerned, we thought that, whether or not it fit within the frame of his characterization at the meeting as being procedural, there would be a reaction to a further disclosure at the subject of recusal came up, and that it may be best to supplement the record." Now, you then went on. I mean, is that a fair---this is Mr. Podesta's deposition. Lees continue. On March 2, and you've indicated in an effort to correct the record, after Mr. Podesta called you, you write a letter and that letter fails to mention the February 2 recusal discussion. Now did Ms. Hanson advise you not to include that? Mr. ALTMAN. No, Senator, she didn't. If I can Senator D'AMATO. How is it that in light of Mr. Podesta specifically calling this to your attention and saying to you that within the frame of this, of the meeting, that there would be a reaction to further disclosure and he really was incisive, you might say, because when we find out thereafter that there was this pressure and I think Mr. Kerry'. my colleague from Massachusetts, said it, I think here you are in the situation where you don't want to be, but you are and we have to ask why are people putting you in this position? And then we have to say to ourselves well, you made it clear you wanted to recuse yourself You made it clear to maybe half a dozen people. To your former assistant who writes a book and says that this is torturous, it's incredible and then others, Jean Hanson the Treasury General Counsel-Ms.-the counsel there, what's her name? Kulka, Kulka. I mean, they all tell you recuse Yourself. You go over there, Bernie Nussbaum-here, let me tell you, you're a tough New Yorker, you negotiate 24, 48 hours, you make deals. You didn't get here and become a great investment banker because you didn't have the stamina, intellect, and the capacity to stand up. He basically says, hey wait a minute, we don't want to leave this with Kulka. He says that, it's undisputed. He's worried about her.
August 2, 1994 - Part 11
(01:25:57) Mr. ALTMAN. Well, Senator, honestly speaking, I can't remember precisely what was in my mind, but as I read it now, I think Senator D'Amato's question toils down to why did you have the meeting, and the reason I had the meeting as underscored by my conversation with Mr. McLarty was to talk about these procedures. Now, I guess it could be looked at another way too, but I think that's a fairly reasonable way to look at it, what I just said. 550 The CHAIRMAN. I guess part of it and several people have touched on it, Senator Kerry has touched on it, and others have touched on it, and that is the recusal issue became a very sensitive issue. I mean it was an awkward issue. There was strong opinion expressed about it. I still think Mr. Steiner's diaries are relevant documents in the sense that he reflects in real time a lot Of controversy surrounding this, granted some hyperbole is in the words that he chose and so forth, but he obviously was reflecting, because he wasn't there as you've indicated, the only person that I know of that he talked to about it was you. So whatever flavor you gave to him from that meeting bad to be central to what be was relating to his diary. At least Mr. ALTMAN. I didn't have a chance to see all of Mr. Steiner's tes- timony this morning, so you please correct me, but of course he could have bad conversations with the White House. He has those all the time. And he could have had conversations with Jean Han. son too. The CHAIRMAN. Well, but even if so, let's grant that. If he'd gotten additional comments from others then that would be in a sense the recollections of other people to the fact that this was a heated discussion and that there was a lot of tension associated with it. I think it is fair to conclude, in looking at these questions fully recognizing the awkwardness and the sensitivity of the recusal issue, in deciding to do it and deciding not to do it and then later finally deciding officially to do it, that it ought to have been mentioned here. I think you see that now yourself, don't you. Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, I agree with that, Senator. The CHAIRMAN. It should have been mentioned. I think it's fair to say that that should have been encompassed within the response to the kinds of questions you were being asked. There were a series of questions that came and because it was a major issue, (01:28:32)(tape #10075 ends)
August 2, 1994 - Part 11
(01:05:37) And so I'm not suggesting that you are going to think of doing anything other than what you've testified. You ad your own pur pose your own mind, but you changed your mind. You said all right, I'll sleep on it, you come back and you have the next day and again the meeting on the 3rd, recusal, precipitated by that brow- 544 beating-and that's my characterization now, but if you read eve body else's that probably isn't inaccurate-one by Bernie Nuss- baum who is the President's attorney. Now we go on. On March 3 you write another letter and again you fail to mention the recusal of February 2. You bring up the meeting, the meeting that took place on the 3rd, and didn't you mention it at that time? Is that unreasonable to You see, look, you are correcting the record, Podesta tells you the meeting on the 2nd, you didn't correct the record. Is it because you don't want to say to the Committee at that time, look, I did go in there to, and I was going to, recuse myself and this took place? I mean that's a reasonable explanation. I can understand it. 1, an: 7, Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, I think the record will show or does show that when Mr. Podesta called me and asked me about that, I said that I thought my answer was responsive to the question. Now; that shows, for whatever it's worth, my state of mind. I thought my answer was responsive to the question and I believe that he'll con- firm that I said that, On the first matter, the fall meetings, I was taken aback and before the end of the day I sent the Committee a letter indicating I just learned about it. Now I just thought that my answer was responsive. Senaotr D'AMATO. Well, it's not until March 21, and that's nearly a month later, that you correct your testimony once again and you finally allude to that February 2 discussion of recusal. I'd have to suggest to you when I begin to read all the other things, I come to the conclusion, given your discussion that you outlined in your diary, you don't want to discuss what happened. The diary where Maggie Williams tells you that the White House is "paralyzed" by Whitewater, Mrs. Clinton in particular. And I have to come to a conclusion, reasonable people might even disagree, that that's why Maggie Williams is at all of these meetings. What is Mrs. Clinton's Chief of Staff doing at these meetings to briefed, the one on February 2, the one on February 3, conversations that she has with you on January 11 that you record in your diary? Where did she get the impression that Ms. Reno was attempting to limit the scope of the-I mean, this is an impression that she conveyed to you. Whether or not it was accurate or not, she actually told you this. You recorded that, I mean you recorded this faithfully as you remembered it at the time; is that true? Mr. ALTMAN. As you see in the notes I drew that inference. You'll have the opportunity to ask a whole variety of people as to whether I drew the correct inference. Mr. Cutler believes that I didn't. In other words Senator DAMATO. Let me give you Mr. ALTMAN. In other words, it didn't happen. Senator D'AMATO. Let me give you something that you quoted in that diary. You said Maggie Williams indicated that "Hillary Clinton doesn't want the counsel poking into 20 years of public life 'in Arkansas." And that's quoted. And here's-you have Lloyd Bentsen and he goes over and he says, and you quote, be's going to go over to see George on Whitewater to "recommend lancing the boil." 19 Of getting this out, getting you recused. 545 Mr. ALTMAN. No, Senator, I'm sorry. That's not what I meant in that. Senator DAMATO. What did you mean by that? Mr. ALTMAN. Secretary Bentsen, who's got the best judgment of anybody I've ever met, thought that the White House should get on with it, get the Independent Counsel in place and move forward that way. That's what he meant by "lance the boil" or, at least, as I remember it. Nothing to do with recusal.
August 2, 1994 - Part 11
(01:10:27) Senator D'AMATO. Let me ask you this. Is it still your testimony now after we've gone through this that the purpose of the February 2 meeting did not include addressing the issue of recusal? Mr. ALTMAN. When I called Mr. McLarty and told him what the purpose of the meeting was, I said it's to discuss the procedure alternatives facing the RTC. That was the day before the meeting. Senator DAMATO. OK Let me give you one other. The CHAIRMAN. Would you just yield at that point for a moment? Senator DAMATO. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. We've covered that a lot of times but wouldn't it be fair to say after the fact, in that meeting recusal was discussed? Mr. ALTMAN. Absolutely, Senator. I'm just saying that I discussed that extemporaneously. The CHAIRMAN. It wasn't your plan to do so. Mr. ALTMAN. No, it wasn't. The CHAIRMAN. But it came up in the meeting and it was a subject of the meeting as the meeting actually happened. Senator GRAMM. It was in his notes. Senator DAMATO. Let him finish, Mr. ALTMAN. As I say, it wasn't the purpose of the meeting, I did bring it up, it did get discussed as you know and along the lines we I 've talked about and so that happened. Senator DAMATO. That's the problem I have. You told people you were going over there to discuss the issue of recusal, Josh Steiner had that impression. Let me tell you what Ben Nye says and Josh Steiner is almost beside himself in his notes when you read them and he said he let them talk you out of it. You were going over there to say that. You told- you discussed the matter with Kulka, ,You discussed the matter with Jean Hanson, you discussed the matter with the Secretary, and then Ben Nye says-he's your as- Question: To your recollection did anyone indicate that the issue of recusal would also be addressed when Mr. Altman contacted the White House. Answer: I believe that it was planned to be discussed. Yet now, Mr. Altman, you've responded to the Committee Chairman with an answer that is contradicted by just about-if you look it and really look at all the people's recollections, that it was certainly intended to go over there to discuss that subject. Are you really saying you didn't intend to discuss the issue of recusal? Honestly to this Committee at this--at 1:15 a.m., after ev- erything has come out, you contend now that when you went over you didn't have on your mind and a purpose and a major se to discuss the issue of recusal and I say major. Senator KERRY. Is this the 2nd or the 3rd? Senator D'AMATO. This is the 2nd, February 2. This is when Bernie up. 546 Mr. ALTMAN. All I'm trying to say, Senator, and I think the record is clear on this, when I called Mr. McLarty and said, is why I'd like to come meet, I didn't bring up recusal. When made that phone call which I think was the day before that wasn't %plan. Senator DAMATO. I didn't ask you what you said to Mr. Me What you told other people and when you set out to go over to meeting, did you intend to bring up the issue of recusal? Mr. ALTMAN. It's my best recollection that I brought it up ex poraneousl,y. I think in my deposition it says that I blurted it That's my best recollection. Senator DAMATO. You blurted it out? Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, I think that's what I said in deposition. Senator DAMATO. These people are all waiting to hear what are saying about that. You really think that they didn't know the statute of limitations was going to end on February 28? And I know the red light is on. If you want me to stop, we'll just come back to it later. Mr. ALTMAN. I do want to say I don't believe, to address myself specifically to Senator Riegle I don't believe that an of the partici- pants in that meeting when I walked in the room thought or knew that recusal was going to be discussed. Senator DAMATO. Let me just put this-here is your talking points prepared for that meeting. Senator GRAMM. For him. Senator DAMATO. Prepared for you, you have asked for these' talking points and it says I've decided that I-look how definite it is. "I have decided that I will recuse myself from the decisionmaking process as interim CEO of the RTC because of my relationship with the President and Mrs. Clinton." I mean you are going to say that. You told this to Ms. Hanson. You told is to Nye. You told this to Steiner. You were going to go over there and do it. Senator KERRY. But as the Senator knows, there were separate talking points that came out of that meeting. Senator GRAMM. This is what he took in. Senator DODD. Can I just on the point The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sarbanes has asked to be recognized and your time is up. Senator D'AMATO. You all are more than generous but if I could conclude in 15 seconds. This is the aspect that troubles me. Even at this time and I conclude by that given these facts, given this 'information, I say I can only come to the conclusion that you absolutely intended to go to that meeting to discuss the issue of recusal and then when asked to correct the record, refused to do it and it was only almost a month later before you finally brought that into play. And I thank my colleagues for being as patient as they have. Mr. ALTMAN. I would like a moment if I could to respond to that The CHAIRMAN. Yes, go ahead.
Tourists, buffet / ?? waterworks
El Rancho, banquet and folk dance
Food, and dance (Haiti)
On Preview Cassette # 216220 Food, and dance (Haiti)