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Aerials - Beverly Hills
ON PREVIEW CASSETTE # 211017 - 00.14.15 - 00.23.32 Aerials - Beverly Hills, residential and business. Houses. Carnation Milk building. Marina, water, boats, fly-by. Traffic on street. Rows of trees - orchard. Sea World? - Park with large pools. Empty stadium with pool.
L.A. from air - bad scratch
July 19, 1995 - Part 3
(12:29:54)(tape #10114 begins) that aspect may be outside of the scope but would not preclude ascertaining if there was some kind of connection. If it goes further than that, I will rule it out. Senator SARBANES. The other observation I might The CHAIRMAN. Now, in fairness to the Senator, I think I've set down-and I hope that I have responded in a manner which constitutes the area of governance of this Committee. At this time, I'd like to see that the Senator has his opportunity to proceed. (12:30:26) Senator SARBANES. Fine. The CHAIRMAN. Then, if people want to raise or question why the Senator brings that up, they can do it on their time. Senator SARBANES. Let me just make this final observation. This is our first witness. I think there is some 23 or 24 either witnesses or panels, and we've now virtually used up the second day of the scheduled hearing. So, if we don't keep the focus on and keep moving along, we're going to have a problem. The CHAIRMAN. I'd like to do that. 126 Senator FAIRCLOTH. If nobody hinders the proceedings any more than I do, we'll move quickly. Mr. Hubbell, I will briefly run through the question one more time. Were you, as Associate Attorney General, aware on or before July 20, 1993, that the FBI or the U.S. Attorney in Little Rock was investigating David Hale? Were you aware, by whatever method? Mr. HUBBELL. As Associate Attorney General is how you asked the question; the answer is no. But during the campaign, I believe, there was a newspaper article that said Mr. Hale was under investigation. So I had read that in the paper, for whatever that's worth'. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Did you know a subpoena was issued to search the office of David Hale on July 20, 1993? Mr, HUBBELL. Not until much later. The CHAIRMAN. Senator, at this point I'm going to say that I think we're beginning to move into a different area. Those questions will be appropriate when it comes to looking into all of those aspects as it relates to Little Rock and whether or not there-and I don't want to be inflammatory or sensational, but all of the various matters laid out in the resolution that cover the Justice Department and its interaction in various events that it had to deal with, at this time Senator FAIRCLOTH. I was through pursuing that line, anyway. The CHAIRMAN. OK. Do you have any other questions? Senator FAIRCLOTH. Yes. Mr. Hubbell, are you aware that anyone with the Rose Law Firm went to Vince Foster's home in Arkansas after his death and removed documents from Vince Foster's home? Mr. HUBBELL. I don't believe that-I'm not aware of anything like that happening, no. Somebody else was living in the home at the time. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Mr. Hubbell, you testified that Lisa Foster looked for a note in the Foster home the evening (12:33:01)(tape #10113 ends) of Mr. Foster's death. During the course of your search, did you discover any documents relating to Whitewater, Madison or any other documents which were later removed to either the White House or to a private attorney? Mr. HUBBELL. No, we did not. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Mr. Hubbell, were you ever aware that the Park Police wanted the Justice Department to search their database for any connection between Vince Foster and the Bank of Credit and Commerce International, more commonly known as BCCI? Mr. HUBBELL. I've never heard that, Senator. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Did you have any responsibility for handling BCCI matters at the Justice Department, or do you know if Mr. Foster had done any work, either in private practice or while with the Government, related to BCCI? Mr. HUBBELL. I recused on the BCCI matter. So I did not have any involvement in Justice on the BCCI matter. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Do you have any knowledge whether there were BCCI documents in Mr. Foster's office? Mr. HUBBELL. I have no idea. I don't know what documents were in Vince's office. 127 Senator FAIRCLOTH. Do you know a John Richardson who worked at the Justice Department? Mr. HUBBELL. I know a John Richardson, but he does not work at the Justice Department, so I don't know--I mean, I know a John Richardson here in Washing-ton, but he's a private attorney. I don't know a John Richardson at the Justice Department. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Do you know who Susan Thomasson is? Mr. HUBBELL. Thomases, yes, I do. She's an attorney in New York with the firm of Wilkie, Farr & Gallagher. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Will you explain briefly her relationship to the President and First Lady as you know it? Mr. HUBBELL. I believe that she and the First Lady went to college together. I know that she has been a longtime friend of both the President and First Lady, and she worked in the campaign and worked in the transition and, as far as I know, is still a very close friend of the First Lady and the President. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Why would Vince Foster have been discussing Travelgate with Susan Thomases?
Ski Champs Dare Jumps Despite Fog
Rolling dull in contrast and imagery Winter sports devotees defy a dense fog for thrills at the year's first exhibition of daring and skill in ski-jumping in the central states.
Omaha Captures 61st Running Of Kentucky Derby
Rolling light in contrast and imagery - You can barely hear the audio A splendid, driving race by the four-to-one shot captures the sixty-first running of the American classic for the Woodward entry in a ding-dong finish as 60,000 wildly-excited spectators leap to their feet in a tremendous ovation to the winner. No 11 is the winner.
July 19, 1995 - Part 3
(12:35:19) Mr. HUBBELL. I know what Susan has told me, and that is that Vince consulted with several private attorneys about the Travel Office, about whether they should hire independent counsel with regard to the hearings that were going to come Lip, and he wanted her evaluation of the Travel Office report done by the White House. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sarbanes. Senator Sarbanes, I believe that we have one other Senator who wants to ask some questions; he's not going to take 10 minutes. Senator Bennett, will you have any others? Aside from that, we are ready to wrap up this part of it. I make inquiry and certainly Senator SARBANES. I have a few questions that I put in. I think some of my colleagues may have some. Why don't I go ahead while they're considering the matter? Mr. Hubbell, I want to clear up this questioning first from Senator Simon and then from Senator DAmato. As I understood Senator Simon's question, it was whether you knew that Vince Foster was upset about Whitewater in the sense that that would have been a cause or a factor in his tragic death. You indicated, as I understand it, that that was not the case; is that correct? Mr. HUBBELL. That's correct. He certainly never expressed any level of concern greater than that he was working on the matters, that Senator SARBANES. Concerning Mr. HUBBELL. "Concern" is a word that has a lot of meanings. What I'm trying to say in response to your question and Senator Simon's and Senator D'Amato's question is, as you look back on the things that Vince seemed to be upset about, Whitewater was not one.of them. If that helps. Senator SARBANES. I think-that's clear, He was working it out as a problem, but that was in the normal line of business. In terms Of the things he was upset about, that was not one of them, as you understood it. Mr. HUBBELL. As he expressed to me. Senator SARBANES. All right. Now, was your concern about closing the office the real worry that the cleaning people might remove 128 something that was relevant to understanding this entire situation? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes, it was. I can imagine if we worked here today and somebody said the cleaning people had gone through and cleaned out all the waste baskets in the Counsel's Office that night, that that would be of concern to a lot of people. That was my concern that evening. Senator SARBANES. I have no doubt about it. If the cleaning people had thrown out things, that would be a big focus around here too. Mr. HUBBELL. Yes. Senator SARBANES. Something going amiss. Mr. HUBBELL. Yes. Senator SARBANES. When you told Bernie to stay out of the mat- ter, was it you thought he was just too personally close to really have an objective view of things as he worked on it? Mr. HUBBELL. I'd like to say that I gave this a lot of thought, but I didn't. I just had an instant reaction that Bernie ought to stay out of it. Vince was like a brother. I didn't really think about privileges, and I didn't know what the matter was. I didn't know what the Park Police were going to do, but I thought there wasn't any reason why Bernie couldn't stay out of it, and that way he wouldn't be criticized for being involved. Senator SARBANES. Of course, at the time that he reviewed the files, which took place with the Park Police, the FBI and the Department of Justice all being present, you were weighing then questions of privilege and so forth. An obvious person to do that would be the Counsel. I mean, Vince Foster was a Deputy Counsel to Nussbaum, so if anyone knew about the work that was going on in the Deputy Counsel's Office, it would be the Counsel, would it not? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes, I think I said-and, believe me, I know that Bernie can speak for himself-as you look at it today, I don't have a good answer of who could have done that but Bernie. I mean, I really don't have a good answer to that question especially with the time constraints. But that's just me being a lawyer, looking at it now, 2 years later.
July 19, 1995 - Part 3
(12:40:27) Senator SARBANES. Of course, a lot of people at the time who were lawyers were not looking at this thing as lawyers; isn't that correct? They were really looking at it as humans, as individuals in a very tragic situation. Mr. HUBBELL. I don't believe any of us were totally operating at 100 percent at that time, certainly. I'd be surprised if anybody was operating at 50 percent. We were in shock and riddled with guilt. Senator SARBANES. I'll yield to counsel, Mr. Chairman. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Thank you, Senator. Mr. Hubbell, did you know that at the time-on the night of July 20, 1993, the night of Mr. Foster's suicide, that by the time the people came into Vince Foster's office to look for a note, that the trash had already been collected by the cleaning personnel? Mr. HUBBELL. No, I did not. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Did you know, sir, that it was staffers or sell ior staffers at the White House that night who thought to contact 129 the GSA cleaning people in order to try to retrieve the trash and that they we're successful in doing so? Mr. HUBBELL. I was not aware of that. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Now, with respect to matters of civil litigation, of which you are substantially familiar, when there is a privilege claim in a civil litigation and where documents have been requested by civil process, under those circumstances, is it fair to say that weeks go by where lawyers review the documents in an office and then make a list of the documents which are called for but which also have attached to them a claim of privilege? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. That's called a privilege log. Mr. HUBBELL. That's the normal case in a big document case, yes. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Now, in circumstances here presented, where the investigators were looking for a note, a suicide note or some other evidence that would be relevant to the state of mind of Mr. Foster prior to his death, did you in any sense feel that the procedures similar to civil litigation, where weeks would be taken by a painstaking review of the documents, setting out a privileged log, would be appropriate when the request was can you help us find a suicide note or a related type of document? Mr. HUBBELL. If that was the request, I don't think it could be done. I don't think the White House Counsel's Office at that time was equipped to do something like that. Senator DODD. Can I ask you, if the counsel wouldn't mind, how long would it have taken, putting aside the issue of whether or not you could have done it, because I think this goes to the timing issue as the Park Police are trying to get in? The suggestion by Senator Bond was that, had he done that, that would have been a wiser way to go. Yet, it at least appears to me-not having any exact idea of the documentation in that office, but presumably it was fairly voluminous-if a log were required to put that all together plus a review of whether or not there were certain documents that would be subject to privilege, it seems to me you are looking at more than a day or two before the Park Police would have been able to go in and do their job. Then I can imagine what this hearing would have been about. Am I right or wrong on that? Mr. HUBBELL. I believe-I don't know what files were there, but if you assume any type of volume, it would have been a difficult and time-consuming procedure of days, just assuming that Bernie had the staff to do it. The White House Counsel's Office was not a civil litigation firm anymore. I mean, it was a White House Counsel, mainly lawyers, very few staff members, and it would have taken quite a long time. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. May I finish with one final question? As far as you knew, one of the things that most concerned and, indeed, upset the Park Police investigators was the timing issue, that they had not been able to review the materials as quickly and promptly as they had wished to. Is that fair to say? Mr. HUBBELL. I really don't know the answer to what the Park Police were upset about. 130 Mr. BEN-VENISTE. If they were concerned about the promptness with which they would be able to examine relevant material, then interposing this kind of a procedure would have been further upsetting, I trust?
July 19, 1995 - Part 3
(12:45:35) Mr. HUBBELL. That's logical, yes. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Shelby. Senator SHELBY. Mr. Chairman, I'll be as brief as I can. Mr. Hubbell, it's obvious to me that it wasn't what the cleaning people would do, but it would be what Bernie Nussbaum and other people at the White House who were looking through the office there would pilfer or remove from the room. Those are the real concerns. Now, obviously Mr. Nussbaum entered into an agreement with the Department of Justice to let the FBI and the Park Police continue their investigation of any motives and so forth we've talked about. Then, he had second thoughts about this. In other words, he obviously was playing for more time or whatever they were doing, God only knows. But at the same time that he would not let the FBI or the Park Police into the room at the White House, Patsy Thomasson Mr. HUBBELL. Thomasson, yes. Senator SHELBY. Thomasson was sitting at the desk looking through the files and so forth. What's her exact title down there at the White House? Mr. HUBBELL. I really don't know her exact title. I believe she was David Watkins' Chief Deputy, but her official title, I really couldn't tell you. Senator SHELBY. But do you know that she doesn't have a secu- rity clearance? I'm talking about national security clearance. Mr. HUBBELL. I was not aware Senator SHELBY. That she didn't at that time? Mr. HUBBELL. I was not aware of that. Senator SHELBY. In other words, it was OK for her and others to go through files, but not the FBI or Park Police? Doesn't that seem strange to you as a number three person at the Justice Department, which the FBI comes under? Mr. HUBBELL. Again, you are asking me to assume that she went through files, which I don't know Senator SHELBY. Let's assume that she did, that it's undisputed just for Senator SARBANES. It's not undisputed. Senator SHELBY. Let's assume, then, for the sake of the question, that she was sitting at the desk and that she was looking for a note or other relevant things. Is that strange to you? Mr. HUBBELL. It is not strange to me that Patsy would have gone: and looked for a note. I think that's a normal human reaction. It's just not strange to me. Or that David might have said go up, unlock the door and see if there's a note on the desk. That doesn't seem strange to me. Senator SHELBY. What about Maggie Williams? Does it seem strange to you that Maggie Williams was down there in the office'? What was she doing? I don't know, but she had access to the Dep- 131 uty White House Counsel's Office. No one kicked her out of the office, but they wouldn't let the FBI into the office. Mr. HUBBELL. I am not surprised that Maggie, at a time of great grief, would go to the office where she had probably spent hours upon days with Vince. She and Vince were probably the closest lawyer-client personal relationship. I'm not surprised that a human reaction would be to go to that office and break down and cry. Now, I don't know what she did, but I would not be surprised, and I-frankly, Maggie is a high-ranking official. She has the same rank as Bernie Nussbaum. So I, she has Senator SHELBY. Do you know if she has national security clearance? Mr. HUBBELL. I do not know. I really don't. Senator SHELBY, Would you be surprised if she did? Mr. HUBBELL. I would be surprised if she did not, Senator SHELBY. OK. But it doesn't surprise you at all that these people would go in this office, but they wouldn't let the FBI, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, go in the office, and you're the number three Associate Attorney General of the United States? Mr. HUBBELL. Under some circumstances, I'm certain the FBI should be allowed to come in the office, yes. I don't know that they said you can't come in the office-I just don't know. Senator SHELBY. You wouldn't be surprised if somebody said, like Mr. Nussbaum, stay out, would you? Mr. HUBBELL. I would be surprised if they said stay out, but there may be a good reason. I just don't know what happened. Senator SHELBY. What's the reason to keep people from knowing things that they didn't want to be ventilated publicly?
July 19, 1995 - Part 3
(12:50:19) Mr. HUBBELL. I thought I gave you an example. If Vince had in his office a short list of Supreme Court candidates, and the pros and cons of that list, if I were a White House Counsel, I would not want to share that with an FBI agent. Based on my experience as Associate Attorney General, I would not want to share that. I would want to claim executive privilege on that document and not share it with anyone other than the people who should know what's in that document, I don't know if that's the case, but I'm trying to give you an example. Senator SHELBY. I know that. Mr. HUBBELL. That's the kind of information I wouldn't want broadcast all over town. Senator SHELBY. But what would be wrong with inventorying things together and then saying this item is something, let me tell you what this is without going into the content? Mr. HUBBELL. I think we've discussed that. I have no thought with that process, and I think you and I have discussed that. I'm just trying to give you an example that would give me great concern. Senator SHELBY. You didn't see anything wrong with that process, did you, that I mentioned? Mr. HUBBELL. No, I did not. Senator SHELBY. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Grams. Senator GRAMS. Mr. Chairman, I will be brief. I just have a couple of quick questions that I wanted to ask to clear up the time. 132 What time did you arrive at the home of Vince Foster that night? Mr. HUBBELL. I do not know. I assume it's between 9 and 10 p.m., but I don't know. Senator GRAMS. I think, according to some testimony from the Park Police it was around 10 p.m. when they arrived and you ar- rived at the I same time, Mr. HUBBELL. Same time. Senator GRAMS. There was a report, also, that you were on your cellular phone while you were at the Mr. HUBBELL. Yes. Senator GRAMS. What was that? Mr. HUBBELL. The Fosters only had one phone in the kitchen, and the house was quite crowded. It wasn't my cellular phone. I believe I borrowed David's, and Mack's when he got there, and then went out to Bill Kennedy's. There were a lot of arrangements that had to be made. I was responsible for contacting the funeral home in Little Rock. I was responsible or took responsibility for talking to several of the Fosters' pastors. The phone was ringing off the wall with people from Little Rock wanting to know what in the world was going on, and Lisa was unable to talk to them; they would ask to talk to me. So I was on the phone, I'm sure, most of the night. I remember-I think David's battery wore down, Mack's battery wore down, and we were using the phone in Bill's car. But the phone was ringing off the wall. Senator GRAMS. You also said you did not talk official business that night, that was the furthest thing from your mind at that moment? Mr. HUBBELL. That's correct. Senator GRAMS. Also, you said there were no conversations of what to do next on an official basis because you were really consumed in what you had to do that night; is that correct? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes, we immediately the question was how do we get Vince home, when can we get Vince home, what type of service can we have? All those horrible questions I hope people don't ever have to do, we had to do that evening. Senator GRAMS. I'm going to ask Mr. Nussbaum the same question, but don't you find it odd that Bernie Nussbaum, who was with the President in the residence that night and left the President as he left to come to Vince Foster's home, that Bernie would decide to go to the office rather than coming to the home to console Vince Foster's family? Do you find it odd that the note or whatever was so paramount to the family that he decided to go from the President's residence to the office? Mr. HUBBELL. I think if there was a note in Vince's office that it would-I think there wasn't a person in the world who that night didn't ask, Webb, have you found a note? So I think it would be logical, before Bernie left, to go into Vince's office and look for a note. I would find it unusual if nobody went in and looked and saw if there was a note on his desk or not. Senator GRAMS. But you don't find it odd that that was his first decision? Rather than going to the residence with the President, that he decided to go to the office? Mr. HUBBELL. I don't think any of us acted logically, so I don't-I can't attribute the right-if that was the right decision or not. I 133 can tell you that we all were in such shock that Vince would kill himself that we were saying why, why in the world, what was so bad? I mean, we were all guilty. That was the one day that I was in the White House that I didn't stop and see Vince, It's something I live with all the time. So we were all saying why? Is there a note? So I'm confident that Bernie would have gone and looked for a note. It just seems logical to me. Senator GRAMS. I have no further questions.
Ferry across river
Brandenberg gate, Alps, castle in mountain
Austria or German street
Berlin - hammer and sickle
Check point - Charlie - East and West Berlin Germany
East Berlin
On Preview Cassette 222342. Berlin, Germany. East Berlin - buildings, Stalin, statue, memorial, East/West Berlin night/day, airport in Berlin ?, propaganda
Munich, Germany