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July 19, 1995 - Part 1
(10:00:15) Wouldn't a reasonable approach have been let's go in there together and let's inventory each item, and if it came to something that had national security significance, the White House Counsel could say well, listen, we're not going to look at this right now, but this is item so-and-so. We're not going to remove it from the room. We're not going to take anything out of this room. We're going to secure this room with guards from the Park Police or the FBI. But that's not what happened because Mr. Nussbaum set out the rules initially with the Justice Department to how that office would be searched, and then he broke that because he had afterthoughts about it. Isn't that what happened, Mr. Hubbell? Mr. HUBBELL. I really don't know what happened. Senator SHELBY. But that's what a reasonable person would surmise, would they not? Mr. HUBBELL. You asked what a reasonable person would do. I think Senator SHELBY. Let's say what Mr. Heymann would do. Ile's a top criminal lawyer, good reputation, Deputy Attorney General of the United States, and he had concerns about what was going on at the White House in the search of that office, did he not? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes, and I think what I would do is get on the phone with Bernie and say Bernie, we need to talk about this. Senator SHELBY. Why would you say you need to talk about it and why didn't you do it? In other words, the Justice Department is the Justice Department, the chief law enforcement officers of the United States of America reside in the Justice Department, Attorney General, Deputy Attorney General, but it was a political-see, this is part of the Clinton Administration-you've got the White House Counsel, you've got the Deputy Attorney General obviously in conflict over the search of the office. Who prevailed? The White House Counsel prevailed, held the FBI at bay. So we'll never know everything that was in that office, will we, Mr. Hubbell? Mr. HUBBELL. I have a feeling through this hearing, you're going to find out what was in that office. But I really don't senator SHELBY. We'll find out what was missing from the office. Mr. HUBBELL. This, for me, is speculation because I do not know what happened. I wasn't there. Senator SHELBY. I know that. Mr. HUBBELL. All 1 heard was Phil say he had it worked out with Bernie Senator SHELBY. He had to go to Bernie to work it out. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bond. 81 OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR CHRISTOPHER S. BOND Senator BOND. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Hubbell, yesterday in your response to questions from Mr. Chertoff and Mr. Ben-Veniste, you discussed going to the Foster residence the evening of the tragedy, You've indicated the emotional state that everyone was in. I believe we all understand that, and I apologize for going back over that, but there are just a couple of questions relating to that that I want to followup on. Do you, from your own direct recollection, recall ever asking someone that evening to see that the White House office of Vince Foster be sealed? Mr. HUBBELL, My own recollection, I don't have a recollection of saying lock or seal the office. Senator BOND. But you were told by others their recollection that you did so indicate. Would you tell us who had that recollection of overhearing you and to whom you were reported to have made those recommendations? Mr. HUBBELL. Both my wife and my friend Marsha Scott have told me that I told-and they don't remember exactly who, whether it was Mack McLarty or David Watkins that I said be sure the office is locked or sealed, or words to that effect. Senator BOND. Did they tell you what the reaction of either Mr. McLarty or Mr. Watkins was to that request? Mr. HUBBELL. It was that they would get that done. senator BOND. Is there any clarity in the view of those two companions of yours who said that they both-one thinks it's McLarty and one thinks it's Watkins? Mr. HUBBELL. My wife believes that I told Mr. McLarty that. Ms. Scott believes that I told both Mr. Watkins and Mr. McLarty that sometime during the evening. 82 Senator BOND. Now, do both of them agree that there was an affirmative response from the person to whom you gave those directions? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes. Senator BOND. You also testified that this question of sealing the,,, office kept you awake that night, among other things, in addition to the tragedy. Can you share with us why that concern both you during the night?
Lebanon - farming
July 19, 1995 - Part 1
(10:05:16) Mr. HUBBELL. I didn't sleep very well that night, as you can imagine. Senator BOND. We can understand that. Mr. HUBBELL. But one of the concerns I had was that somehow the cleaning people would go into that off-ice and clean up the trash cans and maybe pick up notes that may have dropped on the floor and what a tragedy that would be for everybody to go in the office the next morning and the trash would be cleaned out and we wouldn't, at least, have the opportunity to see if there was some- thing in the trash that would give insight into Vince's state of mind. Senator BOND. Now, Mr. Hubbell, that was the first thing that came to your mind, and you testified to that yesterday, that you were concerned about the cleaning people. But, also, were there not other considerations as to why that office should be sealed? Mr. HUBBELL. At the time that's what I was thinking about. Obviously, these hearings are about other considerations, but at the time I was thinking more of an inadvertent removal of something out of the office. Senator BOND. Now, let me ask you in your professional position, you served as an attorney, a judge, a high-ranking official in the Justice Department. Stepping aside from the tragedy of your close friend, Mr. Foster, in your professional position, if you were called upon to supervise or to have influence over the handling of a scene where there had been a tragic death, not a natural death, of a high-ranking official, what would be the concerns that you would have about sealing the office of such an individual? Mr. HUBBELL. One, something inadvertent being taken out of there that might give insight into Vince's state of mind, Senator BOND. Two would be Mr. HUBBELL. The second would obviously be to try to make sure that we knew what Vince might have been working on to see if that would give any insight into what happened. Senator BOND. What other considerations would you have generally, not speaking about Mr. Foster, but where there's a suicide or a violent death of a high Government official, what other concerns should a responsible prosecutor or lawyer or judge be concerned about preserving evidence Mr. HUBBELL. You would obviously want to see if there were personal records in there that might reflect, in the case of a violent death like this, that there was something amiss, something wrong happened. Senator BOND, That could be-number one, it could be a question of whether it was murder or suicide. If it were suicide, there could be a question of whether there was a scandal, or whether there was a breach of security or whether there was other foul play connected 83 with that death. Is that a fair statement? Mr. HUBBELL. That is correct. Senator BOND. So these are the reasons that one would, in good legal practice--investigation of a crime scene--ensure that the office of the victim is sealed? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes, except I would disagree. This was not a crime scene. Senator BOND. Excuse me, strike that. I appreciate that. It's not a crime scene, but the office of a victim of a violent death should be secured. Now, you've indicated that documentation of the contents should proceed. Could you describe for us what you mean by "documentation"? What should be done with the contents of an office under this Mr. HUBBELL. Again, Senator, I'm doing this out of speculation, and I have never personally been involved in a situation like this, and I hope none of us ever are again. Senator BOND. We hope so. Mr. HUBBELL. But I would think that there would be, at some point, some inventory of what was in the office, if possible. Senator BOND. If you were representing a client in a civil or a criminal matter, and the opposing party, whether it be a prosecutor or a private party, wanted to get access to a whole office full of documents, and you might have various privileges to assert, you would, in your normal practice of law, make some accounting of those documents and develop a privilege log or something like that, would you not? Mr. HUBBELL. In a perfect world, yes. Senator BOND. But this would be good practice. You would develop a log of the information that was in the office or the site for which a subpoena had been served?
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