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July 19, 1995 - Part 1
(09:50:47) Senator SHELBY. Were you made aware at that time of any other concerns or problems being raised by other law enforcement officials other than the Department of Justice? In other words, did he 78 tell you anything about how the Park Police, Mr. Hubbell, viewed the White House Counsel's conduct under this? Didn't Mr. Heymann tell you about a conversation he had with Tom Collier, the Chief of Staff of the Secretary of the Interior, about the White House's conduct in the investigation? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes. Specifically, the conversation was brought on by the fact that Mr. Collier had called him to say that the Park Police had concerns. Senator SHELBY. My time is up on this round. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sarbanes, we will attempt to keep as close as we can. I will give some latitude to either side as it relates to finishing a question or a particular line, and hopefully we can work that out so we have a continuity. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR PAUL S. SARBANES Senator SARBANES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm sure that some of our Members will probably run over their time in the questioning, but we will make an effort to hold to the allotted time. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Dodd. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR CHRISTOPHER J. DODD Senator DODD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Hubbell, let me join Senator D'Amato in thanking you for being here and being as forthright and candid and open as you've been. We appreciate it immensely here on the Committee. I'm going to ask you a few very direct questions, and then I'm going to turn whatever time, Mr. Chairman, I have remaining of my slot over to Mr. Ben-Veniste to continue with his line of questioning. First of all, I think, just to review the bidding a bit here, what we're talking about here is a police inquiry into a suicide on July 20, 21, 22, 1993, and thereafter. This was not a police inquiry into Whitewater, Madison Guaranty, or anything else of the kind. This was a police inquiry, a Park Police inquiry into the office of a person who has tragically taken his life to determine, I would suspect, whether or not there's any suicide note or any evidence which would shed any light as to the rationale or reason why that individual had taken that action. So, as we discuss the events around July 20, 21, 22, 1993, and thereafter, I think it's very important to keep in mind exactly what we're talking about here, what the interests of the policing authorities were, and that was to inquire as to whether or not there was any evidence as it relates to the tragic suicide of Mr. Foster. That's what this is all about. So, to the extent, all of a sudden, there was some reluctance to virtually open up the file drawers and every file cabinet in Mr. Foster's office to allow the Park Police or others to go through it to determine whether or not there was any evidence there is, I think, stretching the case a little bit. But let me come back to the particular series of questions, and, Mr. Chairman, my intention would be to ask all of our relevant witnesses these same questions, and they go to the very heart, Mr. Hubbell, of what we're about in this session, in this series of hearings- the second part of these hearings on the Whitewater matter. 79 Mr. Hubbell, on or after July 20, 1993, the date, obviously,. of Vincent Foster's suicide, did anyone ask you or instruct you to destroy any documents from Vincent Foster's office? Mr. HUBBELL. No, Senator. Senator DODD. Did you destroy any documents on or after July 20, 1993 in Vincent Foster's office? Mr. HUBBELL. No, I did not. Senator DODD. On or after July 20, 1993, did anyone ask you or instruct you to conceal from any law enforcement agency documents from Vincent Foster's office? Mr. HUBBELL. No, they did not. Senator DODD. Mr. Hubbell did I anyone at any time ask you or instruct you to take any action to impede, obstruct, or otherwise interfere with any policing investigation regarding Vincent Foster's suicide? Mr. HUBBELL. No, they did not. Senator DODD. I thank you. Mr. BEN-VENISTE. Mr. Hubbell, I'd like to follow up briefly on questions Senator Shelby raised just a few moments ago. When Mr. Heymann told you, in words or substance, that Mr. Nussbaum had put on his New York litigator hat, what did that mean to you? Mr. HUBBELL. I don't know if we want to get into a debate of Southern litigators versus New York litigators, but Southern litigators I think, try to charm their opponents and New York litigators try to play a little harder ball, and that's the view I had.
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July 19, 1995 - Part 1
(10:00:15) Wouldn't a reasonable approach have been let's go in there together and let's inventory each item, and if it came to something that had national security significance, the White House Counsel could say well, listen, we're not going to look at this right now, but this is item so-and-so. We're not going to remove it from the room. We're not going to take anything out of this room. We're going to secure this room with guards from the Park Police or the FBI. But that's not what happened because Mr. Nussbaum set out the rules initially with the Justice Department to how that office would be searched, and then he broke that because he had afterthoughts about it. Isn't that what happened, Mr. Hubbell? Mr. HUBBELL. I really don't know what happened. Senator SHELBY. But that's what a reasonable person would surmise, would they not? Mr. HUBBELL. You asked what a reasonable person would do. I think Senator SHELBY. Let's say what Mr. Heymann would do. Ile's a top criminal lawyer, good reputation, Deputy Attorney General of the United States, and he had concerns about what was going on at the White House in the search of that office, did he not? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes, and I think what I would do is get on the phone with Bernie and say Bernie, we need to talk about this. Senator SHELBY. Why would you say you need to talk about it and why didn't you do it? In other words, the Justice Department is the Justice Department, the chief law enforcement officers of the United States of America reside in the Justice Department, Attorney General, Deputy Attorney General, but it was a political-see, this is part of the Clinton Administration-you've got the White House Counsel, you've got the Deputy Attorney General obviously in conflict over the search of the office. Who prevailed? The White House Counsel prevailed, held the FBI at bay. So we'll never know everything that was in that office, will we, Mr. Hubbell? Mr. HUBBELL. I have a feeling through this hearing, you're going to find out what was in that office. But I really don't senator SHELBY. We'll find out what was missing from the office. Mr. HUBBELL. This, for me, is speculation because I do not know what happened. I wasn't there. Senator SHELBY. I know that. Mr. HUBBELL. All 1 heard was Phil say he had it worked out with Bernie Senator SHELBY. He had to go to Bernie to work it out. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bond. 81 OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR CHRISTOPHER S. BOND Senator BOND. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Hubbell, yesterday in your response to questions from Mr. Chertoff and Mr. Ben-Veniste, you discussed going to the Foster residence the evening of the tragedy, You've indicated the emotional state that everyone was in. I believe we all understand that, and I apologize for going back over that, but there are just a couple of questions relating to that that I want to followup on. Do you, from your own direct recollection, recall ever asking someone that evening to see that the White House office of Vince Foster be sealed? Mr. HUBBELL, My own recollection, I don't have a recollection of saying lock or seal the office. Senator BOND. But you were told by others their recollection that you did so indicate. Would you tell us who had that recollection of overhearing you and to whom you were reported to have made those recommendations? Mr. HUBBELL. Both my wife and my friend Marsha Scott have told me that I told-and they don't remember exactly who, whether it was Mack McLarty or David Watkins that I said be sure the office is locked or sealed, or words to that effect. Senator BOND. Did they tell you what the reaction of either Mr. McLarty or Mr. Watkins was to that request? Mr. HUBBELL. It was that they would get that done. senator BOND. Is there any clarity in the view of those two companions of yours who said that they both-one thinks it's McLarty and one thinks it's Watkins? Mr. HUBBELL. My wife believes that I told Mr. McLarty that. Ms. Scott believes that I told both Mr. Watkins and Mr. McLarty that sometime during the evening. 82 Senator BOND. Now, do both of them agree that there was an affirmative response from the person to whom you gave those directions? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes. Senator BOND. You also testified that this question of sealing the,,, office kept you awake that night, among other things, in addition to the tragedy. Can you share with us why that concern both you during the night?