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August 4, 1994 - Part 11
(21:44:50) Senator BENNETT. But that helps clear that up and I thank you. I just want to make one quick editorial comment. As weird as all of this procedure seems to be, and it's a brand-new experience for me, I find amazingly and incredibly, in my case, it's working. I'm beginning to think I understand what happened. I know that sounds absolutely incredible given what we have been through, but I'm beginning to get a picture. Now it may be a different picture than some of my friends here, and it may be a different picture than you have or that Mr. Altman has or whatever, but somehow in all of the tumbling around and beating around, the mud is coming off the diamond and it's beginning to shine. And I'm beginning to get what I consider to be a fairly clear picture of what happened and think I can sit down when it's all over and if I were on a jury be prepared to vote with some conviction as to what I think the facts are, so brutal as it is may be as a process, 1, for one, am finding it useful. The CHAIRMAN. We will be very interested in hearing what those thoughts are. Senator KERRY. Mr. Chairman, I just want to say to my colleague that he might be interested to note also in the Altman deposition that in that conversation referred to, that you just referred to, Mr. Altman denies that he was asked to do anything with respect to Jay Stephens or that there was any Senator BENNETT. I understand that. Senator BOXER. Would my colleague yield? The CHAIRMAN. The time is up. Senator DAMATO. We'll yield it to you. Senator BOXER. I would like to just call attention to one sentence in Mr. Steiner's testimony before this Committee when he's asked about his comments about Mr. Stephanopoulos saying something to the effect of how can we get rid of Mr. Stephens. He says "as I've said before my intention in keeping this diary was not to give you a precise narrative of the events that occurred. I often use shorthand." I just want to call attention to that at this point in the record. The CHAIRMAN. Who's got time? Senator BENNETT. I can't resist I put an article in the record this morning and I told myself I wouldn't say this but I'm now punchy enough that I've got an excuse later on where Richard Cohen'sRichard Cohen's column says "diary fibbing is now going to take its place alongside not inhaling as a way of ridiculing the Clinton Administration." That may not be fair but that's not the same thing as it's undeserved. Senator KERRY. You're right. Senator BOXER. He's honest about that, it's not fair. Senator D'AMATO. Mr. Chairman, we have some time left. The clock goes on so. 459 Senator MURRAY. Mr. Chairman, can I raise a procedural question one more time now that it's 10 to 10:00? How much more time you expect this panel to be in front of us? The CHAIRMAN, I just asked that question to Senator D'Amato. He thought that there was probably another 30 minutes on his side but he can speak to that directly if he wishes to. Senator D'AMATO. Well, I believe it's about 30 minutes or maybe less. We're drawing to a point where most of the questions have, if not all, of them-I know one of my colleagues has a series of questions to propound. I have a question and an observation. Of course when I make the observation, it will probably be who knows how many minutes of discourse but I think we're down to about a half hour. Senator MURRAY. Mr. Chairman, I'll just make an editorial comment. This is beginning to remind me when I taught preschool and one of my 4-year-olds always had to have the last word. It was tough to end an argument. [Laughter.] Senator DAMATO. Well, I guess you haven't changed, have you? Senator KERRY. Tonight, America is going to get Leno, Letterman and Nussbaum. [Laughter.] The CHAIRMAN. Well, if I may, everybody is tired. It's been a long, punishing week and that's true for the witnesses as well as for the Members and we're nearing the conclusion here. I think Members that have questions are going to be permitted to ask them, we'll get the answers and as soon as we can finish, we'll be done. No one wants to be done any sooner than do 1. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Mr. Chairman, can we just make sure that it's a question that hasn't been asked already or asked already more than once because we've had a lot of that. The CHAIRMAN. Well, let me just say on that point, what often happens, Senators come and go and so a question gets asked by one Senator while another Senator is out of the room, and when they come back, they have not heard that and so they-and that happens on both sides. It's the nature of the problem. I think when questions are being asked repetitively when the same people are in the room, then that's not justified and that certainly is a point that I think you're making. So let's hope we don't have any of that but let's proceed rand see if we can't finish up here.
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August 4, 1994 - Part 11
(21:50:11) Senator D'AMATO. Mr. Chairman, I believe Senator Mack--Senator Domenici, are you ready to make inquiry? Senator DOMENICI. I'm going to ask one question and make one observation. Mr. Podesta, a lot has been made, perhaps you're not aware of this, but during previous testimony that Legal Counsel for the Treasury Department, Ms. Hanson, had some major responsibility to correct the record. Once you found out about it, did you have any less responsibility and if you did, why didn't you see to it that the record was corrected? Mr. PODESTA. Senator, I think that the Administration has a duty to this Committee. As I said in my opening statement, I worked up here for a long time. I think we had a duty to you. That was what my phone call to Mr. Altman was about, was trying to find the best way to make sure the record was complete. Senator D'AMATO. For which I commend you. 460 Mr. PODESTA. And I just hope you understand that in the wake of that, in the wake of the criticism of the contacts with regardwe received a subpoena-that we thought it was not reasonable at that point to go forward talking to Treasury about their testimony what we had said and what Mr. Altman had said, and that's, I think, the best explanation I can give you for what our conduct was. Senator DOMENICI, So you're saying when Mr. Fiske issued the: subpoenas, either to you or the White House or the White House and you, that at that point you thought or were you given legal advice that perhaps you should not proceed any further with this matter? I don't understand the nature of the subpoenas. We're hearing a lot about Mr. PODESTA. Senator, the inquiry that the subpoenas were directed at was who said what to who, and I think that having more contacts in that context would have been criticized, And I think it would have been fairly criticized. So while I think people have expressed regret in these hearings about some of their conduct, the one thing I do not regret is that we did not talk to Treasury further. about the testimony or about their supplements to the testimony or the letters. Senator DOMENICI. I have one observation and frankly it may be because I don't understand all of the dynamics and the lawsuits and the pressure you're under; Mr. Stephanopoulos, with reference to all of this various testimony under oath and I gather there's a lot of that. You've testified many, many times under oath. You've stated that here. I do want to tell you honestly, while I was not as familiar with your work in the Congress as was Mr. Gephardt, for whom you worked, I did serve one time for 12 or 14 days when we put together a big economic package. And I really found that your abilities were rather spectacular, including your ability to summarize, your ability to recall, your ability to wrap up a meeting and remember everything that occurred, during the day. And I must tell you, I read your deposition and-I'm dumb founded that so many answers say "I don't recall" and "I don't remember." I just have to tell you that on the record, and you're really free to answer right now. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. I'm happy to answer, sir, and thank you. I would just say I also spent several hours before this Committee in depositions giving full accounts of everything that I did. If you.. ask me looking back 5 months what I remember, if I can remember-, every word of a conversation, a phone conversation that lasted between 30 seconds and 2 minutes, my honest answer, like everybody else in this room, is no. I simply cannot remember word of a conversation 5 months ago. I would also say, and just give you a picture of my day on Friday, February 25th. said, I'm a staffer. You know that I'm a staffer. I've done that a long time. Like many of your staffers, I'm required to go issue to issue very quickly. On that day, I began work at 6-00 a.m. I was at work immediately--- Senator DOMENICI. Which day are you referring to? 461 Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. This is Friday, February 25th. I received phone calls immediately at 6:00 a.m. about the Hebron Massacre because we had to come up with a response for the Today Show on television. I was dealing with that from about 6:00 to 8:00 in the morning. We immediately went from that to help staff the President on a meeting he had with several Senators, maybe some in this room, about Aldrich Ames. I had to go from that to help staff a meeting on Health Care. I think I probably had two separate lunches that day and a reception and probably 30 or 40 phone calls.
August 4, 1994 - Part 11
(21:55:25) This was a tiny sliver, 30 minutes, 30 seconds to 2 minutes of a 14-hour day in which I had probably 100 conversations. And frankly, sir, I remember an awful lot about that conversation, given the context of that day, and I've told you everything that I have told every other Committee. I've remembered a lot about that day. I've remembered it to the best of my ability, and I have done the best I can, and I think I've been very direct in answering your questions, and I would finally just say and I feel because I know that people are watching, I want to repeat it again. This has been looked at by the Special Counsel Robert Fiske. He found no criminal violations-please let me finish, Senator-this was found by the Office of Government Ethics Senator DOMENICI. Don't tell me how to behave. Please don't tell me "let me finish." I didn't even say a word. OK? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Yes, sir. I would like to complete the statement. Senator DOMENICI. Unless I speak up, you don't have to admonish me or ask me for anything. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS, Yes, sir. It was looked at by the Office of Government Ethics. Every single one of these questions was asked dozens of times. They were all answered. The Office of Government Ethics found no ethical violations. It was looked at by Lloyd Cutler, the Counsel. Every single one of these questions was asked dozens of times. He found no ethical violations. I have been asked this by numerous news outlets in public several times. This has been gone over and over and over and over and over again. I remember an awful lot of it. I did not direct anybody to interfere in any investigation. I did not interfere in any investigation. No one in the White House interfered in any investigation, and that's what these Committee hearings are going to find. Senator DOMENICI. Let me first say I never did accuse you of that so Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. No, I didn't suggest that you did. I just wanted to repeat it. Senator DOMENICI. In fact, I'm not sure that's why you're here, because someone accuses you of interfering in a criminal investigation Frankly, I wanted to know some very basic questions. After reading your deposition it's clear there's not very much use in asking you some of those questions because you don't recall and that's what I was alluding to. Mr- Podesta, your answer said to me that there was a wall because of the subpoenas and the like. But I don't think I asked you 462 why you hadn't talked to Treasury about it. I think I asked youwhether you thought you had fulfilled your responsibility to correct' the record or did you think it was only Treasury's responsibility.,' Mr. PODESTA. I thought it was ours. I placed the call to Mr. Alt,. man. I thought that that was why I placed the call to Mr. Altman.-, It was my understanding at the time, faulty I think, that with regard to the matter that we thought needed-absolutely neededcorrection, which was the two fall meetings, that that had been done. I think that you have to read the letter and connect the dots back to the question to Senator Bond to take that information out of there, but I thought that information had been provided. Senator DOMENICI, Thank you. Senator SARBANES. Is there anyone on this side who wishes to ask a question? Senator D'Amato, we'll come back to you then, I guess. Senator DAMATO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to make an observation. There's been some controversy, to say the least, as it relates to how we should interpret Mr. Steiner's diary. Some of us believe that it is the best evidence as it relates to what really, truly took place, Others point to Mr. Steiner's more recent recollections, and his testimony as indicating there may be a difference and that of others. Now, Josh Steiner obviously made a judgment. He made judgments that he recorded. Indeed, some of them may have been subjective judgments. He made a judgment that he recorded about the President's state of mind in his diary. He said--I believe the word was "furious." And the question of Roger Altman relating this to him. Now, some have disputed that. Some have even gone so far as to say, and I think this evening we've heard testimony from Mr. Stephanopoulos, as I recall several hours ago, that on that particular Friday in the afternoon, he went into see the President, and the President wasn't upset, not to mention furious, wasn't upset, Is that a fair characterization of what you
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