Advanced Search
August 4, 1994 - Part 5
(13:10:18) Now Mr. Altman tells us under oath-Mr. Altman says under oath that his diaries accurately reflected his discussions with you, Maggie Williams. He said his duties-his diaries included entries which had historical significance. In other words, this wasn't just a collection of things. They had historical significance and were intended to be accurate. Now I'm going to ask you a question. Are you saying that Mr. Altman's testimony is inaccurate? Ms. WILLIAMS. Sir, what I'm saying to you is I am also under oath here and as I have said before, I do not have a recollection of these conversations. Senator DAMATO. So then he may have been accurate and he testifies to us that they were written for historical significance and intended to be accurate. Now you say you don't have a recollection. MS. WILLIAM& No, it is not now that I say Senator D'AMATO. I don't mean to be well, you tell me. Ms. WILLIAMS. No, it is not now that I have said. I have consistently said even to Mr. Altman himself that I do not have a recollection of having any of these conversations with you. Senator D'AMATO. I thank you, Senator GRAMM. Mr. Chairman, let me try to clarify here. I don't think anybody is trying to make any big deal out of this thing, but here's the point. You have a person like Mr. Altman, who is writing in a confidential diary that he assumes at the time is never going to be read by anybody, and he says, not that he read something in the newspaper, but that on Whitewater, "Maggie told me that Hillary Rodham Clinton was paralyzed by it." Twice under oath he's gone back and verified that entry. Obviously, the natural thing to wonder is why in the world would anybody make up that entry, which they never thought anybody would read, and then at risk of perjury defend it twice. The difficulty we have is to square that likelihood with the recollection of someone who says I don't go around talking about the lady I work for. Ms. Williams, I assume if you did make that statement it would be a pretty extraordinary conversation, and obviously Mr. Altman thought this one was. But that's where the confusion is coming from, It's just one of these occasions where you have two people, and they have two different stories. Let me say, Mack, I want to ask you a question, and it's something I'm confused about. I've tried to go back and put all this together and understand what was going on. I read these internal diaries, which I give greater credence to, because people wrote them from their heart. They assumed they were never going to be read. When we say things publicly, we know they are going to be read and, as humans, we all have the tendency to at least put things in the best light for us, if Dot put them in a light that is brighter than the sun. In any case, all through this period we have these references in these diaries about intense pressure that Altman was under from 336 the White House, that he had been told by the White House that stepping aside in the Madison investigation was "unacceptable," These are powerful words that people generally don't make up or confuse with other words. Last night, the President brought into this discussion a whole new perspective. When he said, "The only thing that upset me'-- this is about Altman's deciding to take himself out of the Madison" Guaranty investigation---- "The only thing that upset me was that I did not want to see him stampeded into it." Here is the point. We're reading what Mr. Altman is saying in his diary, what his confidant, the Chief of Staff, is saying in his diary, and there at least it is described that all the pressure from the White House is for Mr. Altman to stay on the investigation. Where is this-why do you think the President has reached a conclusion that there was this pressure stampeding him to get out of it? It seems to me that you can make a case based on what we know was in Mr. Altman's mind and in the minds of the people around him. All of his peers at Treasury said he ought to get out of it, he's one of the President's closest friends, he has this long connection with the President from being in college, people are going to say at least there is a potential conflict of interest here with his friend. We know that. But in terms of pressure, as he perceives it, it's all coming from one direction, from the White House, and it's all to stay in the Madison investigation. Explain to me, if you can, where the President sees this pressure
August 4, 1994 - Part 5
(13:15:29) Mr. McLARTY. Senator, if I understand your question, let me try to respond to it as best I possibly can. As I've already commented this morning and testified, I don't know of any evidence to suggest that Mr. Altman had pressure or intense pressure to recuse himself. I certainly did not convey that to him. I think the President's comment probably is in the context-and Mr. Nussbaum and others can discuss this more fully, I believe Mr. Klein and Mr. Eggleston did yesterday in their panelthere were a number of other nominees that were before various Committees and this matter of recusal, if you had any relationship with the President was an issue, and that really was a very serious issue and one that I think particularly Mr. Nussbaum was concerned about. Senator GRAMM. Let me ask you your opinion on something, if I may, if it's appropriate. Do you believe, given the close association 'I with the President that Mr. Altman should have recused himself, which again, to speak in the language of the people who are listen- ing, that he should have taken himself out of the Madison inves- tigation from day one? Mr. McLARTY. My opinion is that Mr. Altman had all the facts to make that decision he should make that decision. You've charac- terized his relationship with the President. It's not unusual to a relationship. I don't think perhaps the relationship is as close and long-standing as perhaps you suggested, but I, think Mr- Alt', man has been a person, at least in my dealings, that's always been 337 evenhanded and objective and if he reached a conclusion he could in this matter, then that was his decision, Senator. And I think that's what he was weighing. Senator GRAMM. Well, I think that's correct. I guess I would have to go back to the point and pick a real-life example. I've known Senator Domenici since I came to Congress. We're not childhood friends. I never borrowed any money from him. But if I found myself in a position where I had to decide about things like criminal referrals with relationship to my friend, Senator Domenici, or if I found myself having to oversee an investigation of him-and I'm confident that I or no one else will ever be in that Position, which is why I chose him-I think immediately without giving it a thought as long as a heartbeat that I would say, maybe I can be objective, but I think people are going to question whether I can be objective or not. And it wouldn't take a second to say, I want to, in the legal word, recuse myself from this. Yet we have this long, tortured process, with all of this pressure being reported in private, for Mr. Altman to stay on, no pressure recorded in private for him to leave. It strikes me as strange logic. I don't understand the logic the President is expressing here, that he was concerned that Mr. Altman was being forced to withdraw himself from the investigation, when it seems to me that there's, instead, this overwhelming pressure for him to stay on. All of this pressure for him to stay was applied, even though there should have never been any real doubt in anybody's mind that he should have not gotten into it to begin with. The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a response, Mr. McLarty? The time has run, but do you have a response you want to make to that? Mr. McLARTY. Yes, very quickly. The CHAIRMAN. Please do. Mr. McLARTY, First, the testimony has been that there was not pressure prior on this decision and I'd like to respond to that. Second, I recall an exchange, a brief exchange between Mr. Klein and Senator Bennett last night, I believe about this recusal matter, and people can look at this matter differently. To me, Mr. Altman was the person who could know in his gut, I think as Senator Bennett said, whether he could be objective and fair and I think if he concluded that he would indeed feel that way and would be objective and fair. I think that's a decision that each individual has to make, Senator. The CHAIRMAN. Well, we may have to come back to that. Senator Moseley-Braun. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR MOSELEY-BRAUN Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do not subscribe to the theory that once everything has been said, everybody has to say it. And so I'm going to just try to resolve a couple of points or implications that may have been raised previously and then ask the witnesses some general questions. In the first instance with regard to the Senator from Texas, I think almost may have mischaracterized the situation because Mr. Altman Was -not, at the time of any of these contacts, involved with crimi- rial referrals at all, in which we know from the record already the President was a witness and not a target of the investigation. 338 Your conversation about the analogy that you used with regard to Senator Domenici suggested it was a case in which
Jet Clashes In Fiery Ball
A plane bound for Philadelphia from Puerto Rico falls during a storm near Elkton, Maryland. Eighty-one persons are killed in the crash that some experts attribute to a bolt of lighting. Maryland Evening and all you see are the silhouettes of rescue workers and firemen walking around a big ball of fire. MS - Camera pans the crash site and there is wreckage strewn all over the place. MS - Three men looking over the crash site. MLS - A small crowd people gathered looking over the crash site, the pieces of the plane are so small that you cannot identify any of the wreckage belonging to a passenger plane.
Out Of The Jungle By Christmas
The first of 1,000 GI's to be evacuated from the fighting in Vietnam leave Saigon for home. The movement is in line with reducing United States forces to 15,000 troops. These men do no ask why, - all they care about is being home for Christmas. Saigon, Vietnam Army and Navy walking and carrying suit cases for their Christmas leave's. CUS - Three higher ranking army officers. MLS - Three United States Transport planes sitting on the tarmac waiting for the military to embark for their trips back home.. MCUS - Military men walking towards the camera. Military men embarking on the Military Air Transport plane and they will be on their way home for Christmas. CUS - The soldiers smiling faces as they board the plane.
Happy Ending: Ransom Frees Frank Sinatra Jr.
Frank Sinatra, Jr., kidnapped from a motel in Lake Tahoe, California, returns safely to his mother's home in West Los Angeles, after his father pays the kidnappers $240,000 in ransom money. The young Sinatra is unharmed after spending 53 hours in the hands of his abductors. California Harrah's Motel in Lake Tahoe. Marquee - George Jessel, Mary Kaye Trio, Tommy Dorsey Orchestra, Helen Forrest, Pied Pipers, Sam Donahue, Chas Shavers and Frank Sinatra. Jr. MCUS - Frank Sinatra Jr. on stage. (no audio) MCUS - The motel annex where Frank Sinatra Jr. was staying. Rm. 417. MCUS - Triumph player, John Foss and standing in back of him are the State Police. MCUS - Road block. CUS - Frank Sinatra Sr.. CUS - Frank Sinatra Jr. and his family, mother and sister Nancy
August 4, 1994 - Part 5
(13:20:42) Senator GRAMM. If the gentlelady would yield Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. No, no, sir. Senator GRAMM [continuing]. We have two sworn statements or, that. September the 29th he made a decision to pass those criminal referrals and the reference to the President on to the White House., Two people under oath have said that. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. At the time that these witnesses that the conversation that we're discussing today were involved, the recusal decision related to the civil cases. Senator GRAMM. No, but he had dealt with the criminal cases on September 29th, which occurred before. That's all I'm saying. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. That's not correct, sir, and the record will indicate that. Senator GRAMM. Two people said under oath that was correct. senator BOXER. Mr. Chairman, can we The CHAIRMAN. The Senator from Illinois does not have to yield. Senator KERRY. The Senator is allowed to draw a conclusion. The Senator is allowed to draw a conclusion as to the 29th, but there is no fact, I mean, two people may have testified, it doesn't make it a fact. The CHAIRMAN. The Senator from Illinois has the time. Senator GRAMM. They said it under oath. That's all I'm saying. Senator KERRY. Somebody else said under oath that wasn't true, so you are left drawing the conclusion. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. That's all I wanted to point out, that the editorializing, I think, may confuse the message that we're giving here in terms of the scope of the testimony, the substance of the testimony from these witnesses and I just want to narrow the focus back to the limited context that these witnesses had and what they have to share with this Committee. And in that vein, I think there is a second misconception that kind of Came Out in the conversation here with regard to the diary entries about, regarding your conversation, Ms. Williams, concerning the First Lady's state of mind. Based on your testimony what we have are two different stories. To use again the Senator from Texas' words, he said there are two stories here. Well, there are two stories about a third person 's state of mind. And the only regard in which it would be material in any event would be to the extent that it might have suggested that Mr. Altman's perception was affected in terms of his decision about whether or not to recuse himself. That's kind of long and tortured, but I think it's important to show where the connections are here because we, we have again and it kind of blurs the waters and a lot of editorializing going on an allows for the possibility at least of misconception ion. And I believe I've heard both of these witnesses say that neither of them had any direct role in pressuring or otherwise suggesting to Mr- Altman what he should do. And that is correct, is it not? Ms. WILLIAMS. That is generally correct, although I would just once more like to volunteer that I suggested to Mr. Altman, with respect to whether or not he should recuse himself that since he was going to use what I thought to be excellent judgment defer- 339 ring to the staff, being a staff person, I thought it made a lot of sense for him not to recuse. I asked him why he would recuse. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. OK. Now, again to put this matter in context, the Madison situation involved a failed S&L that in terms of dollar amounts, Mr. Chairman, and we've gone over this. Senator Kerry was particularly good at trying to put this whole thing in the context of the savings and loan debacle that this country witnessed. Madison came out in terms of dollar losses, although it was a lot of money in whole dollars to ordinary folks, it was still 5/10,000 of 1 percent of the total savings and loan losses. And the only question, there is no question in anyone's mind that the reason that we are all here is, again, the connection as witnesses or again the connection, however tangential it might be, between the President and the First Lady. But at the time getting again being specific to the issues before this panel today, at the time of the recusal decision specifically, at the time that Mr. McLarty describes, in his statement as a period from the end of September to the beginning of March, which would have been roughly the period in which you were involved, I don't know if the question has been asked, I don't think it has, but if you could quickly describe for the panel the context in which all of this happened in terms of your typical day, how many phone calls did you have in a day, how many meetings did you have in a day, how many hours did you work in a day. If you could just very briefly do that because I have a question I'd like to wrap this up with and I don't want to lose much of my time. Mr. McLarty and then Ms. Williams.
Sail boats (lake)
Yacht club - sail boats - scooners
Sailing and surf riding
Cruise at night
Speed boats, sail boats
Loading boats
Yacht at sea
Sail boats (boy)
Sail boats
Yacht wheel
St. Petersburg Yacht
Activity in a small cabin cruiser
Unknown
Sailing
Sailboat at dock and bay
Ships compass
Sail boat (Honolulu race)
Sailboats mixed misc.