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Impeachment Hearings: House Judiciary Committee, July 27, 1974 (2/2)
[01.10.30] Mr. BUTLER. Specifically, on or about June 28, 1972, Jeb Magruder met with CRP Director of Scheduling Herbert Porter and asked him to prepare false testimony concerning the purposes for which cash had been' disbursed to Liddy. Specifically, on July 19 and 20, 1972, respectively, Porter and Magruder falsely told FBI agents that the funds obtained from CRP were for legal intelligence gathering activities. Specifically, on August 10, Porter testified falsely before the, Watergate grand jury as to the purpose of the $199,000 in cash paid to Liddy. Specifically on August 18, Magruder after discussing his false story about, the Liddy money with Dean and Mitchell, testified falsely be-- fore the Watergate grand Jury. Specifically, on September 12 or 13, 1972, Magruder met with Mitchell and Dean to plan a false certain meetings among -Mitchell, Magruder, Dean, and Liddy in early 1972, Specifically, Magruder thereafter testified about the meetings before the Watergate grand jury. Now, I would direct your attention to page 86 of our transcript of the testimony in which it shows that on March 21, during his morning meeting with Dean the President was told of' the perjury by both .Magruder and Porter. Dealing with the top of page 87, the President says, "Who?" and this deals -with something preceding it, and I won't burden you with that. It talks about Mitchell, and then Dean says: [quoted] Mitchell, I don't know how much knowledge he actually had. I know Magruder has perjured himself in the grand jury. I know that Porter has perjured himself, uh, in the grand jury. [end] And the President says, "Porter [unintelligible], who is that, in effect, and "he is one of Magruder's deputies." And the President "Yeah." Then on March 13, 1973, "Dean told the, President directly that Strachan's denial of prior knowledge of the Liddy plan was, false and that Strachan planned to stonewall again in the future. And I call your attention to page 70 of our transcript, the one prepared for the committee. Dean says: [quoted section] Well, Chapin didn't know anything about the Watergate, and-- PRESIDENT. You don't think so? ,, DEAN. No, absolutely not. PRESIDENT, Did Strachan? DEAN. Yes. PRESIDENT. He knew? DEAN. Yes. PRESIDENT. Well, then, Bob knew. He probably told Bob, then. He may not have. He may not have. DEAN. He was, he was judicious in what he relayed and, uh, but Strachan is tough as nails. PRESIDENT. What'll he say: Just go in and say he didn't know? DEAN. He'll go in and stonewall it and say, "I don't know anything about what you are talking about." He has already done it twice, as you know, in interviews. PRESIDENT. I guess he should, shouldn't lie., in the interests of--why? I suppose we can all that justice, call we? We can't call it [unintelligible]. DEAN. Well it, it-- PRESIDENT. The point is, how do you justify that? DEAN. It's a-- it's a personal loyalty with him. He doesn't want it any other way. He didn't have to be told. He didn't have to be asked, It just is something that he found is the way he wanted to handle the Situation, PRESIDENT. But he knew? He knew about Watergate? Strachan did? DEAN. Uh-huh PRESIDENT. I'll be damned. Well, that's the problem in Bob's case, isn't it? It's not Chapin then, but Strachan--'cause Strachan worked for him. DEAN. Uh-huh. [end quoted section] The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman has already consumed 5 minutes. Mr. BUTLER. Mr. Chairman. may I have 5 minutes more to speak in opposition to the motion? The CHAIRMAN. I thought the gentleman was speaking in opposition to the motion? Mr. BUTLER. I was, but I thought I was on Mr. Flowers' time, and I thought he is the. proponent of the motion. Mr. Chairman, I will take my 5 minutes wherever I may, but I would-- The CHAIRMAN. If the gentleman is seeking 5 more minutes, the gentleman will be recognized for the 5 minutes, and that will consume the 10 minutes in opposition to the amendment. Mr. BUTLER. Well, we will have to live with that, Mr. Chairman. Returning now, if I may, I would like to emphasize that the procedural aspects of these proceedings are not -without their levity, and I consider this an extremely serious matter, and there is, indeed, extensive evidence which I would, given the time, enlarge upon. I am going through my prepared remarks, and I will conclude, and I will let you know when my time has run out. But, it goes for, at this moment, some 13 pages, and it extensively develops, with specific, whatever that word is, the point which this, paragraph is addressed to, the approving the condoning, the acquiescence in and the counseling of witnesses with respect to false testimony. It is a grave matter, and I regret that we have, chosen to limit time, but I will do what I can with what I have. [01.16.04]
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Impeachment Hearings: House Judiciary Committee, July 27, 1974 (2/2)
[01.16.04] Specifically. on March 21, 1973, the President instructed Dean and Haldeman to lie about the arrangements for payments to the defendants. And in this regard, I call your attention to page 119 of our transcript. I think we have probably been over this some little time before but it is relevant to this particular point dealing with the Cuban committee [quoted section] PRESIDENT. As far as what happened up to this time, our cover there is just going to be the Cuban Committee did this for them up to the election. DEAN. Well, yeah. We can put that together. That isn't, of course, quite the way it happened, but, uh---- PRESIDENT I know, but it's the way it's going to have to happen. DEAN. It's going to have to happen [laughs]. [end quoted section] Mr. BUTLER. And I direct Your attention also to page 120 of the transcript which follows specifically on March 21, also the President told Haldeman and Dean-- [quoted section] PRESIDENT. That's right. That's right. HALDEMAN. You can say you forgot, too, can't you? DEAN. Sure. PRESIDENT. That's right. DEAN. But you cant'-your-very high risk in perjury situation. [end quoted section] Mr. BUTLER. Now, this is on page 120 of the transcript. I think I will not burden you too much with that at the moment because I am running out of time. Specifically, the President and Dean discussed how Magruder' perjury Problem -was helpful in making him keep his story straight. And that is on page 123 of our transcripts. And Dean says to the' President: [quoted section] DEAN. Once we, once we start down any route that involves the criminal justice System-- PRESIDENT. Yeah. DEAN. You've got to have full appreciation of there's really no control over that. PRESIDENT. No, sir. DEAN. While we did, we have an amazing job of--- PRESIDENT. Yeah, I know. DEAN. Keeping the thing on the track before. PRESIDENT. Straight. DEAN. While the FBI was out there all that--and that was, uh, only', because-- PRESIDENT. Right. DEAN. I had a [unintelligible] of where they were going. PRESIDENT. [Unintelligible] right. Right. But, you haven't got that now because, everybody else is going to have a lawyer, Let's take the new grand jury. Uh, the new grand jury would call Magruder again, wouldn't it? DEAN. But, based on what information it would? For example, what happens if Dean goes in and gives a story, you know, that here is the way it all came about. It was supposed to be a legitimate operation and it obviously got off the track. I heard of these horribles. I told Haldeman that we shouldn't be involved it. PRESIDENT. Yeah, right. DEAN. Then Magruder's going to have to be called in and questioned about all those meetings again, and the like. And it begins to--again, he'll begin to change his story as to what he told the grand jury the last time. PRESIDENT. Well- DEAN. That way, he is in a perjury situation. HALDEMAN. Except that's the best leverage you've got on Jeb-is that he's got to keep his story straight or he's in real trouble. DEAN. That's right. [end quoted section] Mr. BUTLER. And of course, this conversation was between the President, Dean and Haldeman. Specifically, at the March 27 meeting between the President, Haldeman, and Ehrlichman the following discussion took place this comes from the unedited, or the edited transcripts which which have come to us from the White House. And I refer you to page 35 of that transcript if you will. [quoted section] HALDEMAN, Let's go another one. So you persuade Magruder that is that; and approach is (a) not true; I think you can probably persuade him of that; and (b) not desirable to take. So he then says, in despair, "Heck, what do I do? Here's McCord out here accusing me," McCord has flatly accused me of perjury-- he's flatly accused Dean of complicity. Dean is going to go, and Magruder knows of the fact that Dean wasn't involved, so he knows that when Dean goes down, Dean can testify as an honest man. PRESIDENT. Is Dean going to finger Magruder ? HALDEMAN. No, sir. PRESIDENT There's the other point. HALDEMAN. Dean will not finger Magruder but Dean can't either-likewise, he can't defend Magruder. PRESIDENT. Well--- HALDEMAN. Dean won't consider [unintelligible] Magruder. [reading interrupted] The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman will finish his sentence. Mr. BUTLER. Well, I will finish what I was reading of the statement by Mr. Haldeman in this quotation, if I may. But Magruder then says: [quoted section] Look, if Dean goes down to the grand jury and clears himself, with no evidence against him except McCord's statement, which will not hold up, and it is not, true. Now, I go down to the grand jury, because obviously they are going to call me back, and I go to defend myself against McCord's statement, which I know is true Now I have a little tougher problem than Dean has. You are saying to me, "Don't make up a new lie to cover the old lie." What would you recommend that I do? Stay with the old lie and hope I would come out, or clean myself up and go to jail'? The President, to Haldeman. "What would you advise him to do?" [end quoted section] The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman has expired. Mr. BUTLER. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from California to speak in support of the--- Mr. WIGGINS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have started from an understanding of what the language is before us to be stricken, and I want to read the operative words, at least, These are charges against the President. mind you, approving, condoning, acquiescing in and counseling witnesses with respect to giving false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers, and so forth, including congressional proceedings, Note, if you will, that; the language is couched in terms or giving false testimony in the future. That is an important thing to remember because the perjury of Magruder and Porter occurred prior to March 17, well prior to March 17, and the., President did not learn about it until March 17, and so I ask the obvious question, can you counsel the giving of perjured testimony after it is already done? Well, the answer to that is no. The President is just learning about it, on the 17th,----- [01.22.46--TAPE OUT]