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August 4, 1994 - Part 3
(11:45:15) I believe that it was inappropriate for White House officials to express a view regarding the recusal of Mr. Altman, so I must put that on the table, Ms. Williams and Mr. McLarty, and to all of those who expressed this view, I think it was inappropriate-although, the truth is, Mr. Altman could discuss that issue with anyone that he wanted. That is my understanding of the law. It was perfectly fine. He could discuss it with anyone. But again we are looking at the atmosphere under which this conversation took place, which was described in Mr, Steiner's diary as "Intense pressure." Now I am trying to ask about people who were at the meeting, because we are trying to put ourselves at that meeting. Mr. Steiner was not at the meeting. He keeps being quoted as if he was there. You were there. Mr. Eggleston was there. Mr. Eggleston got complimented by almost everyone. He said he would not characterize it as intense pressure. My recollection from last night-and I think it is pretty sound-is that there were a lot of questions raised, and Mr. Nussbaum was not in a happy mood about it. 315 Is that your recollection of what happened during that period? I know you said you tuned out at a certain point. I think it would be kind of hard to tune out if Mr. Nussbaum had thrown a fit about the situation, but you tuned out. What do you remember, again, concisely? Would you say that you exerted intense pressure on Mr. Altman? MS. WILLIAMS. No, I did not exert pressure on Mr. Altman. I asked him a question. Senator BOXER. Now, Mr. McLarty, you were the Chief of Staff to the President of the United States of America. I have worked with you, and I know that when you wanted to make an opinion known to me you had your way of getting to the point and doing it. Now Mr. Steiner said that Mr. Altman was under intense pressure from the White House. Surely as Chief of Staff of the White House, if anyone represented "the White House," or "the President" in my mind it was you, more so than anybody else. Did you put intense pressure on Mr. Altman to recuse himself? Mr. McLARTY. No, Senator Boxer, I did not. Senator BOXER. What did you say to Mr. Altman when he told you he was thinking about recusing himself? Mr. McLARTY. I told him to make the---my advice to him was to make the judgment he thought was the right one. Senator BOXER. So you said, "Make the judgment you think is the right one," and Mr. Steiner writes that Mr. Altman was under intense pressure from the White House. I have never known you as a man to be dishonest, Do you have any reservation about what you told Mr. Altman? Do you remember it clearly that that is what you said? Mr. McLARTY. Yes, Senator, I remember it clearly. In my mind there was no way that Mr. Altman could have interpreted anything I said as any kind of pressure about his decision. Senator BOXER. And you were Chief of Staff to the President of the United States at that time. Mr. McLARTY. At that time I had the privilege to serve in that position. Senator BOXER. Now do you think Roger Altman, Mr. McLarty, is the type of man who could be easily intimidated? Mr. McLARTY, No, I do not. Senator BOXER. Ms, Williams, is your impression of Mr. Altman that he is kind of a weak-kneed guy who has not been around the block a few times? Or is this a man who has had some experience? Ms. WILLIAMS. That would be my impression of Mr. Altman, Someone who had some experience. Senator BOXER. OK. Well I think it is very important that this Committee, before it hangs someone on the basis of a diary, listen to the people who were involved in the discussion directly. I think that is the least that this Committee can do before we go out and make our pronouncements as to what we think went on. Mr, McLarty, in retrospect do you think it would have been better if all the questions on Whitewater and Madison Guaranty had been handled in a different way? 316 Mr. McLARTY. Oh, I think hindsight is always helpful in any decision, and I think the contacts could have been more clearly channeled through the White House Counsel's Office, in retrospect. Senator BOXER. Or perhaps, in my view, not gone to the White House at all. I mean, that is something Mr. MCLARTY. I think I said that in my opening statement, that in retrospect there were some things that you would have certainly tried to do differently. Senator BOXER. Mr. McLarty, did the President or the First Lady ever ask you to slow down the Whitewater investigation in any way? Mr. MCLARTY. No, they did not. Senator BOXER. Did the President or the First Lady ever ask you to beg Mr. Altman or ask Mr. Altman or exert pressure on Mr. Altman to stay in his position so that Whitewater would go away and not be an issue? Mr. MCLARTY. No, they did not beg me or ask me to do that. Senator BOXER. Ms. Williams, as Assistant to the President, did he ever discuss this matter with you and urge you to do all you could do to convince Mr. Altman not to recuse himself and to go easy on the Whitewater matter?
White House Fair
Children of Government officials and guests of President and Mrs. Johnson at a full-scale, old-fashioned "country fair" on the South Lawn of the White House. Lynda Bir and her fiancT attend and the Ferris wheel, carousel, and other features thrill the kids. View from the crest of a Ferris wheel. Various shots of First Lady Johnson: eating popcorn, riding a carousel, riding in an antique car with Vice President Humphrey, mingling. Carnival games, children. The Washington Monument is shown in the distance.
August 4, 1994 - Part 3
(11:50:13) Ms. WILLIAMS. No, Senator. Senator BOXER. Did the First Lady ever entreaty you in such a fashion? Ms. WILLIAMS. No, Senator. Senator BOXER. Well, Mr. Chairman, I am not going to use up all my time, but I have to say this to the two of you: I think that you are really good public servants. I have never really talked to you before. But I want to say to you that your strong focus and your strong purpose on what you are in your job comes through to me, and I think you served the First Lady well, the President well, and the country well. And I do wish-I do wish-that everyone else in the Administration had that focus. Because, had they had that focus, I do not think we would be here right now. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Boxer. Senator Hatch. Senator HATCH. In your prepared testimony you stated that "no one" attempted to influence the RTC's decision on whether or when to bring claims against individuals with regard to the failure of Madison. Would an attempt by the White House or Treasury staff to shift civil iurisdiction from RTC and give it to the independent Counsel, OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR HATCH Senator HATCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. McLarty, welcome. It is good to see you and Ms. Williams. Mr. MCLARTY. Good morning, Senator Hatch. Senator HATCH. Mr. McLarty, do you know of any communications between the White House staff and the Department of Justice concerning the scope of the Independent Counsel's charter? Mr. McLARTY. No, I do not. 317 were it to have occurred, in your view qualify as "an attempt to influence the RTC's decision"? Mr. McLARTY. Well, Senator, my statement was I am not aware of any efforts on the part of the White House to influence an RTC decision. And it is my understanding that other career members of the RTC have expressed a similar view. Senator HATCH. I understand you are not aware of it, but if that actually happened would that qualify as an attempt to influence Mr. MCLARTY. I do not know, Senator, that it would, but to the best of my knowledge it has not happened. Senator HATCH. OK. Ms. Williams, let me spend a few minutes with you. OK? Your position is Assistant to the President and Chief of Staff to the First Lady? MS. WILLIAMS. Yes, Senator. Senator HATCH. In this position, you attend all senior staff meetings, right? Ms. WILLIAMS. Some. Senator HATCH. As many as you can? Ms. WILLIAMS. Yes. Senator HATCH. "All" may be too all inclusive. You came to Washington after having worked for Mrs. Clinton. I think you were with the Children's Defense Fund, as well? MS. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. That is correct. Senator HATCH. I have a lot of respect for them, as you know. How long did you work for Mrs. Clinton before you came to Washington? MS. WILLIAMS. From September to December. Senator HATCH. Let me turn to Mr. Altman's diary for a few minutes. You are familiar with those entries? Ms. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir, I AM Senator HATCH. In fact, Mr. Cutler, the White House Counsel, asked you about those diary entries prior to your deposition before this Committee? Ms. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Senator HATCH. You were provided a copy of those diary entries? Ms. WILLIAMS. I was provided Senator HATCH. In other words, prior to your deposition, I guess? Ms. WILLIAMS. Prior to my deposition. Senator HATCH. Right. In fact, Mr. Altman provided you with a copy, did he not? Ms. WILLIAMS. Yes, he did. Senator HATCH. OK. When we deposed Mr. Altman, he explained that the reason he gave you a copy is because he felt "badly" about Providing the Committee with copies. Is that your recollection? Ms. WILLIAMS. Of Mr. Altman's testimony? Senator HATCH. Well, that he felt badly that lie had provided the Committee with copies. I guess what I am asking you is: What would Mr. Altman have felt badly about, if you know? Ms. WILLIAMS. I am not sure I quite understand this question. 318 Senator HATCH. Well when we deposed him, he said he felt badly about providing the Committee with copies, and that is why he provided you with one. I was just wondering if you knew why he would feel badly about that. Ms. WILLIAMS, About providing the Committee with copies? Senator HATCH. Right. MS. WILLIAMS. No, I do not know why he felt badly about that. Senator HATCH. Could you see where providing you a copy of the diary entries could be seen as another one of Mr. Altman's famous "heads up" decisions? Ms. WILLIAMS. Well I did not necessarily view it in that context because Mr. Cutler had earlier asked me questions about the diary, which was the first time I ever heard about it. Senator HATCH. All right. During your deposition when you were asked about being provided a copy of the diary entry, you did not inform the Committee that Mr. Altman had provided you with a copy. Right? Ms. WILLIAMS. I did not, but let me say, having reviewed my deposition, that the questions as I recall did not make it necessary at that time. The way the questions were being asked, it was: Who was the first person to inform you.? And then later questions were: Who read you the copies of the diary? So, I did not, Senator HATCH. And in fact when you were asked by the Committee if you "had any idea" where the diary pages your attorney had came from, your response was "I have no idea." Ms. WILLIAMS. That is still correct, because my attorney did not receive copies of Mr. Altman's diary from -me, Senator HATCH. Well, but the important point is that you had an opportunity to review those diary entries prior to your deposition, and that they were provided to you by Mr. Altman. Right? Ms. WILLIAMS. Well, I believe the point is twofold, actually.
August 4, 1994 - Part 3
(11:55:58) Mr. Cutler first asked me about the diaries, and I gave him my answers about whether or not I knew about them, whether or not anything in them rung true to me, or if I could recall any of those conversations. Senator HATCH. So you discussed the diary entries with Mr. Cutler, then? Ms. WILLIAMS. Mr. Cutler discussed them with me, that is correct. Senator HATCH. Now, I would like to read some of the Altman diary dated January 11th, the day before President Clinton requested that an Independent Counsel be named. He goes on to say, "Maggie's strong inference was that the White House was trying to negotiate the scope of an Independent Counsel with Reno, and having enormous diffliculties." HRC "doesn't want the Counsel poking around in the twenty years of public life in Arkansas." Mr. Altman has testified-you are familiar with that diary entry? 319 MS. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir, I am. Senator HATCH. He has testified both at his deposition, and before the Committee that his reference to Maggie is you. He testified that he only wrote what he thought to be of "historical value," and which he believed to be true. He also testified further that these entries were made after a January 11th Health Care meeting he had with you. Now regarding the entry which discusses the White House negotiations with Attorney General Reno, you testified during your deposition that you "didn't know anything about" the entry. Do you remember that? Ms. WILLIAMS. That is correct. Senator HATCH. You do not recall any communication which took place at a Health Care meeting where you may have mentioned Attorney General Reno or the Independent Counsel. Is that what you are basically saying. Ms. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir, that is my testimony. Senator HATCH, Now you have no knowledge of any White House discussions with the Department of Justice concerning the Independent Counsel either? Ms. WILLIAMS. Absolutely not. Senator HATCH. Do you have any knowledge of any discussions by the Clinton's or their attorneys concerning the scope of the Independent Counsel's charter? Ms. WILLIAMS. No, sir, I do not have any knowledge of that. Senator HATCH. You also testified that you did not have any discussions with the First Lady about the scope of the Independent Counsel charter. Is that correct? Ms. WILLIAMS. No, sir. I would not have. Senator HATCH. You mean that is correct? Ms. WILLIAMS. That is correct, yes, sir. Senator HATCH. Did you have any discussions with anyone in the White House concerning the scope-discussions with anybody in the White House concerning the scope of the Independent Counsel charter? Ms. WILLIAMS. No, sir, not concerning the scope of the Independent Counsel. I will say that there was a lot of debate, both inside the White House and also in the press and public and even on the Hill, every day about should there be an Independent Counsel, should there not be an Independent Counsel, and I am sure that I was involved in conversations about whether or not there should be or should not be. Senator HATCH, OK. So to this day, you have no idea why Mr. Altman may have gotten the idea from you that the White House Was trying to negotiate the scope of the Independent Counsel with the Justice Department. Is that right? Ms. WILLIAMS. That is correct, sir. And let me add additionally, one of the things I recall was that the main thing that people were saying was that whatever the decision, it would be a Justice Department decision. That, whatever 320 you do, do not talk to the Justice Department. Just go on with your work. Senator HATCH. Well, I think that is all, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Hatch. Senator Campbell. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR CAMPBELL Senator CAMPBELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have been in here 4 days now, and about half the time it seems to me, I would describe it as trolling, hoping somebody would run into a hook. So I want to try to keep my questions very to the point and very simple. But I might make one observation. I was listening with interest when Senator Kerry was asking some questions, and he inadvertently made a mistake on one of the meeting times and you were very quick to correct the record, good thinking. As you probably know, if you wait a couple weeks to correct around here, it is pretty risky. [Laughter.] Mr. McLARTY. Thank you, Senator. Senator CAMPBELL. Let me ask you a little bit about this so-, called response team. Is that still in effect? Is there still a response team? Ms. WILLIAMS. No, there is not. Senator CAMPBELL. There is not. It was put together primarily to deal with press concerns? Mr. McLARTY. That is correct. Right after the first of the year, there was quite a bit of interest, press inquiry allegations, many without any kind of factual basis whatsoever about the Whitewater/Madison Guaranty matter, and we simply wanted these coordinated in the White House and that is why I asked Mr. Ickes to take on that responsibility, to assume that responsibility.