Advanced Search
Dyer #1 Horseracing, etc.
Dyer #1 Horseracing, etc.
Horse (Breaking thoroughbreds at training...
Horse (Breaking thoroughbreds at training track by cowboys in CA, Horse being shed, training to wear bridle and saddle. Farmers laying pipes and watering fields, yearlings in fields, running - Graining mares and foals
August 3, 1994 - Part 8
(19:30:24) The CHAIRMAN. We're scheduled to start at 9:30 a.m., and I'm certainly open to starting sooner than that if it's practical for the ,Members here, and I'm happy to talk to people about that. I'm willing to start at an earlier hour. My intention is to get through these panels in the same fashion and manner in which we've been operating up until the present time. senator BOXER. Mr. Chairman, is there a way-if we're going to have-I understand you're going to start the two tonight. The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Senator BOXER. And when everyone is tired, you're going to or you're going to break at a certain time? The CHAIRMAN. No. I'm going to make a judgment as to an hour this evening. We're not going to be able to finish I don't think, without going into the dead of night. I don't think that's a sound course of action. 148 Senator BOXER. Can we fold these two into another panel in the morning rather than have a whole separate panel and throw us off our schedule? Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Mr. Chairman, would it he appropriate- can we just break for a minute and discuss this? The CHAIRMAN. I'd be happy to talk to you informally. I don't want to break for that purpose. We've got Members that want to ask questions. We've got witnesses sitting here. Senator DODD. Mr. Chairman, just a suggestion. Is the first panel tomorrow also White House? What about the possibility of then trying to combine, maybe, the two this evening, what they haven't finished, with the first panel. Senator BOXER. That's what I just suggested. Senator DODD. Did you make that suggestion? Senator BOXER. Yes. But it sounded very good when you said it again. [Laughter.] Senator DODD. What? Senator BOXER. It sounded very good when you said it. Senator D'AMATO. I'm willing and I speak for our side, to accomodate--to think we can finish this off, let's get our witnesses sworn in, let's have their opening statements, you save time. Start punctually at 9:00, try to go through them as quickly as possible. If you don't want to do that, why then, let's just keep plowing ahead, Senator BOXER, I'd rather plow ahead. Senator D'AMATO. If you want to plow ahead you're going to he here a long time. Because then I'll tell you what takes place. People do not- they don't have an incentive to say at 9:00 or 9:30 we can be out of here, because we know we're going to be here until 12:00 or 1:00. Senator SARBANES. Why don't we go ahead now? The CHAIRMAN. If I may say so, I'm attempting to reconcile a number of different issues and points of view. I'd like a little latitude on this issue, on this scheduling matter. I think what I'm posing to you is a reasonable way to move this. I'd be happy to talk to people individually. I don't think we're going to solve it in this kind of a group discussion, Right now I'd like to call on the next person waiting to ask questions. Senator SHELBY. You're the Chairman, you make the decision. Senator SARBANES. Mr. Chairman Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Mr. Chairman, we'd just like you to withhold judgment until we've had a chance to discuss it a little bit with you, The CHAIRMAN. I will do so. Did you want to go next, Senator D'Amato? Senator D'AMATO. Senator Gramm. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Gramm is recognized. Senator GRAMM. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Klein, want to go back to your deposition. You were asked in your deposition the following question: "In other words, your understanding was that Mr. Altman was not going to raise the recusal discussion on February 2nd in whatever letter he wrote. And your answer was "that was my understanding " You then go 149 on to say, "I feel reasonably confident that I probably said something to the effect of if he's going to write a letter, 1 don't understand why he doesn't put this recusal point or something to that effect in the letter." Now, is that your recollection of your deposition'? Mr. KLEIN. That's correct, sir. Senator GRAMM. Do you have any further information as to why Mr. Altman did not put the recusal issue in the letter of March the 2nd? Mr. KLEIN. Other than the testimony I heard here yesterday, no, sir. Senator GRAMM. I've tried to look at this in every way. He's writing a letter to clarify the record. You don't have any doubt that when he wrote that letter, he knew that recusal discussions had occurred. He had been in on at least two meetings. There may have been a dozen telephone calls, some of which he was involved in. Your boss had called him directly and said, you didn't mention recusal. You have no doubt whatsoever that he knew about recusal? Mr. KLEIN. Based on the information I had, I don't have any real doubt about that, sir, Senator GRAMM. Well, it seems to me that there is only one inference that this Committee can draw from that. Let me just speak for myself. There's only one inference I can draw from it, and that is that for some reason, which we do not know, and my guess is we'll never know fully, Mr. Altman desperately did not want this Committee to know that this discussion was going on at that point. And that gets me back to this issue: what is the big deal about recusal?
"Cypress" SignFirst Roadway PointTREES
"Cypress" SignFirst Roadway PointTREES
Coats & Towns
Point Arena; ocean ***
Coast & Towns
Stinson Beach
Coast & Towns
Dairy Ranch & herd & jeep
Coast & Towns
ColumbiaMother Lode
Coast & Towns
Columbia
Coast & Towns
Mendocino & fishing Old Buildings 100 year old house Masonic Building Offshore Pike Fisherman and boats
Coast & Towns
Shore & rocks#1 to Monterey
Coast & Towns
Carson Mansion--Eureka California(Now the Ingomar Club)
Coast & Towns
Red Flowers & ocean glitter ****
Coast & Towns
Shore & rocks ***some big splashes
Coast & Towns
Off-shore rocks (small, red)
Coast & Towns
Coast #1 (end)
Coast & Towns
Coast
Coast & Towns
Sea & rocks (Second is splash)
Coast & Towns
Seashore & rocks, cliffs, & Sea **
Coast & Towns
Seashore, march, ect.
August 3, 1994 - Part 8
(19:35:28) We had a discussion going back and forth earlier when I was here between one of our Members and Mr. Eggleston about the fact that everybody knew that Mr. Altman was in phantom recusal. Everybody knew that he was going to recuse himself if anything happened. Everybody knew that these civil servants below him were the kind of people that weren't going to let him get away with any politic's or hanky-panky. Everybody knew that, but the problem is whatever kind of logic you try to impose on top of this-and I think the natural inclination of the human mind is to try to impose logic-the bottom line is the facts show clearly and convincingly that tremendous exertions of effort were undertaken to prevent this Committee, and perhaps the world, from knowing that the recusal issue was being discussed, Mr. Ickes asked Ms. Hanson, "how many people were told you were discussing it? It's good that it's a limited number. We don't want people to know about it." We have diaries written from the heart that Mr. Altman was told that it was unacceptable to recuse himself. He was under intense Pressure, we re told. The problem is, if it didn't matter, what was all this about? I know you can't answer that question, but I'll just give my opinion It is clear to any objective observer that Mr. -Altman desperately did not want this to be known and was willing to risk being in a position where he could be accused of being less than honest-if it were 12:00 last night I would have said "lying"-to a of Congress, knowing that that is a violation of law. 150 And I think that any reasonable person has to give that heavy weight in this discussion. This whole idea of phantom recusal--this whole idea of, well, he really recused himself but he didn't want to tell anybody about it. He didn't want them to know that he had recused himself. I know we can say those things. I know it's convenient to talk about them, and I know this is the Congress and there's a different standard of language we have here than in the real world, but nobody believes that. Mr. KLEIN. Senator Gramm, can I respond to that? Senator GRAMM. Yes, sir. Mr. KLEIN. I can't put myself in Mr. Altman's mind, but I think I can say something for me and my colleagues here, and that is as far as the White House was concerned, I think the evidence is quite strong that we were not trying to hide this fact of recusal, and what I mean by that is, Mr. Eggleston has testified, and there's no dispute about it, he called the day before the hearing with respect to the recusal. Senator GRAMM. Mr. Klein, I don't in any way dispute that. The person who tried to hide this, desperately tried to hide it, was Mr, Altman. He went to incredible lengths to hide it and, in fact, produced a situation where now there is clear and convincing evidence that he knowingly in that March letter withheld very important information. And while I'm on that subject, let me say that we've had many people testify before this Committee, but if I were in the White House, you're exactly the kind of person I would want to be a counsel for me. I appreciate the direct way you answer questions. I appreciate the way you get to the bottom line. And my guess is, had Mr, Altman had people like you working directly for him or had he been a person like you, we wouldn't even be here. Now, I want to go back to you, Mr. Eggleston, to discuss this meeting on February 3rd, a meeting we know almost nothing about. You were there. We know, at least by sworn testimony, that Maggie Williams was the person that Roger Altman called, and we' have her recollection of the call: "Well, Roger called, and he said. to me, I decided not to recuse. And he said, I want to tell some people in the White House that." I guess he thought it was going to be glorious news. And then she says-which is very interesting to me "I remember thinking to myself, so tell him. Big deal." She didn't literally say "big deal." But people out on the street would have said "big deal." This is a sworn statement. You don't say "big deal" in a sworn statement. And then he said that he's on his way to his meeting and get some people together, because I want to come over and tell them. Was the tenor of that meeting that Mr. Altman came in and said, I have glorious news, I've decided not to recuse myself.?
Camping
Bikes
Camping
Two Hikers(man & woman)
Camping
Plaquesand Mather. N.P. Service