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August 4, 1994 - Part 13
(00:55:45) Mr. NUSSBAUM. That's exactly what I try to do. I try to give the best advice and judgments, legal judgment and other judgments, that I can give under the circumstances at the time. I try to do my best. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Now that you've had a chance to see and hear the other views, the other perceptions, would you change that view now? Mr. NUSSBAUM. You're not going to like this answer, perhaps. Senator MOSELEY-BRAuN. That's OK Mr. NUSSBAUM. But I've thought about it a lot. I've had occasion, having left the Government, taking a mini-sabbatical, to think about this. I respect the other views. I respect your view, Senator Boxer's view, Senator Kerry's view, the Chairman's view, Lloyd Cutler's view, Lloyd Bentsen's view. I don't agree. I don't agree. I really still maintain my view that if you're not legally or ethically required to recuse yourself, and that includes appearances, then you do your job. You do your duty. Now, that's my position. As a result of that position, I am now back in New York rather than in Washington, but that's my position. Senator MOSELEY-BRAuN. I have no further questions. Thank you, Mr. Nussbaum. Senator DODD. Mr. Chairman? 510 The CHAIRMAN. Senator Murray. Senator MURRAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have listen carefully to my colleagues talk about this issue of recusal because I think it raises a lot of And I can't help but agree with my colleague, Senator Kerry. my Sometimes, you've got to look past legal and ethical issues and see public perception and public opinion because we live with that' every day, But I find myself sitting here thinking what does that do to us in the future if we factor public perception into every deci- sion? I think one of the reasons we find ourselves sitting here for 5 or 6 solid days, going through questions, is because we had a man who essentially held two jobs, one in Treasury and one in the RTC. He was there because the White House sent a name over to the Senate, and this Committee didn't deal with him. We never got anybody in place. Trying to find somebody to do that job has been extremely difficult. If we had confirmed a name, any name, Stanley Tate or anybody sent over by the President to head up the RTC and, I think we would ask whoever that person is: Are you too close to Bill Clinton' to deal with the Madison Guaranty issue? And I have to ask, is there any Presidential nominee we could put in place who would not have to recuse himself on this as head of the RTC? Mr. NUSSBAUM. This raises a profound difference I have with so many of you in this room. Just because the President appoints somebody to a position and that person is confirmed by the Senate doesn't mean he can't act with a matter affecting the President or the President's family. In the Silverado case, a George Bush appointee confirmed by the Senate acted with respect to Neil Bush. Congressman Leach, in his letter to Roger Altman on February 3rd when he told him to seriously consider recusing himself, mentioned that fact, recognized that Presidential appointees are not, ipso facto, by virtue of that position, prevented from acting with respect to matters affecting the President or the President's family. Roger Altman was not, because he was a Presidential appointee, was not disqualified from acting in this matter. The fact that he was a friend of the President didn't disqualify him from acting in this matter. We have ethics rules that deal with these issues here and I'm not arguing with anybody in particular now, we're sort of overriding them because of some greater public relations consideration, political considerations, public perception considerations, whatever these names people are using. I understand how important those things are politically, and I understand how those things have political effects on people's lives but nonetheless, I don't believe they should override the fundamental principle if a person is not legally or ethically required to recuse himself. And because you're a Presidential appointee doesn't legally or ethically require you to recuse yourself Senator MURRAY. I want to ask my friend, Senator Kerry, because, as he pointed out, if we set a legal standard and an ethics standard and also a public opinion standard Senator KERRY. Perception.
Childhood Friends
Childhood Friends LS two grade school age boys in silhouette walking away from camera toward beach, it's the twilight hour with a golden sunset on the horizon, very warm and representing childhood nostalgia.
Baseball
Shaky dull in contrast and imagery - DOS 30,000 Amused spectators witness the annual charity game, in which many leading Hollywood stars and comedians run riot on the diamond, hitting an occasional ball and otherwise carrying on in true 'gag' fashion. Joe E. Brown at microphone describing the game. Older woman throwing out first pitch.
'Frontier Day' Celebrated
Shaky dull in contrast and imagery - DOS All the dashing bravado and color of the old west is recalled with a fast-riding and thrilling rodeo, featuring daring bronco riders, and a street parade in which colorful floats depict the days of Buffalo Bill.
America Welcomes Corrigan
Shaky dull in contrast and imagery Douglas Corrigan, intrepid aviator who flew 'by mistake' non-stop to Ireland in a $900, 9-year-old plane, tells his story to Universal Newsreel far out at sea, before his spectacular reception in New York. Douglas Corrigan waves from passenger liner and passes a sight-seeing boat with banners welcoming him back home to New York. Ticker tape parade in New York. Corrigan waves to crowd on parade route. (various generic shots could be used for other ticker-tape parades)
Night Watchman A Father For 26th Time At Age Of 82
Shaky dull in contrast and imagery - DOS George Boarman, Octogenarian night watchman, who credits his--err--well, his longevity to righteous living, is the proud papa of a bouncing boy of 8 pounds by this third wife, who's 21. It's Boarman's 26th child. Boarman at work on the boat docks. He jumps about doing a silly dance, apparently to show how youthful he is. Cameramen wearing medical gowns and masks, standing behind newsreel cameras. CU of George Boarman and his 21 year old wife and new born child.
August 4, 1994 - Part 13
(01:00:40) Senator MURRAY. Public perception standard, could we find anybody to be in that position? 511 Senator KERRY. If I could supplement the question to Mr. Nussbaum and, look, I don't quarrel with you on any other level, but don't you think Mr. Altman fell into-he's not just a political appointee in the sense-I'm on her time Senator D'AMATO. I don't agree. I'll read the whole thing. Senator DODD. It's important. Senator MURRAY. I don't believe they're arguing with that, Senator Kerry. Senator KERRY. They're talking about something else. Just on the question of Mr. Altman, he ran the war room, he had this extraordinary access to the White House, he was a major player in Health Care. So here you have somebody who's a central part of the President's political agenda in a way many people wouldn't Separate from the rise or fall of the President himself, particularly the campaign, also. I think you have a very different status than just an appointee who goes off to do his job. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Senator Kerry, you're making it a very strong argument in this respect, and it really is a close case, maybe a closer case than sometimes I make it sound when I get carried away with my position. But you have to understand what he said to me at that meeting, and it sort of subsumed some of the things you said. He comes into me and he says I am not legally or ethically required to recuse myself. I know that legal or ethical recusal standards take into account relationships and appearances, so he's, in effect, saying to me I've gone to somebody. I've discussed these issues. I've laid out all the facts, including, I presume, those kinds of things, and I've gotten this advice. Then that triggers my response. Maybe you're speaking with justification or you're saying with justification that I should have examined it more, come to an independent conclusion about this, and maybe you've reached a different conclusion. Senator MURRAY. Mr. Nussbaum, it's my time that I'm losing here. I think that this is a discussion that this Committee is going to have to have. Fortunately, the RTC is going to go out of exist- ence, I hope in my lifetime, but I do think it's a question that all of us have to as ask ourselves. If we have Presidential appointees, is there an ethic bar so high that no one can jump over it and every- one would have to recuse? Before I lose my time, Mr. Nussbaum, I have to ask you something else and it goes away from this entirely. Having sat here and listened to all kinds of theories about who did what and how awful they were, it seems to me that some people came into this willing to hang somebody before we started and some people are still there. I'm not sure where I am yet, but I have to go back to our very first day of hearings when we discussed Vince Foster's suicide. I know you were not here, but I know that you knew him. And I have to ask you, having left this town, having watched all of this. Vince Foster said something and I would just like to give you an opportunity to comment on it. "Here, ruining people is considered sport." I really would like to hear what you have to say about his observation. Mr. NUSSBAUM. That's a very hard question to ask me, because I really had great affection and great respect for Vince Foster. He was a marvelous person and a great Deputy. I think the course of 512 my life was changed by his suicide. I think, to some extent) he was right. I think in Washington, among some people, ruining people is considered sport. But I don't really believe that exists on every level. I really don't agree with Vince in the final analysis. I think there's a lot of it. There's too much of it, but fundamentally-I said this before the House, to some extent, too--fundamentally, I believe the public service is a high calling. I believe it's a worthy calling. I believe it has certain dangers that go along with it. I believe you should ex- pect those. You should try to deal with those as best you can, it shouldn't discourage people. I don't want Vince's death, I don't want my experience to discourage people from coming to Washington. I really want people to come and to serve.
1960s - Man Scooping Water from Stream
MS older man with Shepherd's staff bending over with cupped hand and drinking from fresh water stream.
1950s - People of the Andes
MS South American Indians of the Andes mountains posing for photographer, all smiling as the man focuses the lens on his big tripod camera
Gray Squirrel
Master 2138, Tape 1 MS Young Gray Squirrel (Sciurus carolinensis) sitting on a tree branch. The squirrel scratches himself with his hind leg. The squirrel grooms. The squirrel climbs the tree branches.
Gray Squirrels
Master 2138, Tape 1 MS tree with den hole. One young Gray Squirrel (Sciurus carolinensis) pops his head out of the den hole. Another squirrel is on the back of the tree; he climbs around to the den hole. Both squirrels retreat into the den. A third squirrel climbs down the tree trunk and into the den. The squirrels have been scared by a crow's call.
Gray Squirrel
Master 2138, Tape 1 MS Young Gray Squirrel (Sciurus carolinensis) sticks his head out of his den hole in a tree. The squirrel comes out of his den and climbs on the tree. The squirrel sits in a tree and eats.
Novel 'Venus' Contest Staged
Shaky dull in contrast and imagery - DOS 125 Streamlined lassies compete in Steeplechase Park's 25th annual Modern Venus Contest (Bathing Beauty contest). The judges pick diminutive Elissa Winston, pretty 19 yr. old brunette, as the No. 1 'Eyeful'. Judges "measure" her up, a judge measures her bust and waist.
The World Of Sports - Futuristic Car
Shaky dull in contrast and imagery - DOS An amazing, turtle-shaped racer, developed by John Cobb, British broker and sportsman, is made ready for an assault on the world's auto speed record held by Captain Eyston. Cobb's car has 2630 H.P.!
Wrestler - Iron Man
Shaky dull in contrast and imagery - DOS 'Iron Man' Talun, Polish wrestler, who speaks no English but knows all the familiar tricks and a few new ones, is seen in a rip-snorting match in and out of the ring. He finally downs Danno O'Mahoney, his much battered opponent.
August 4, 1994 - Part 13
(01:05:27) Senator MURRAY. And I appreciate that, but I wonder if we set the ethical bar so high, that no one can do any of these jobs? Mr. NUSSBAUM. I think that's a real problem. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Murray. Are there any further questions for the witness because, if not, I'm going to excuse the witness. We've got the results of the deposition here with Ms. Hanson. There's been a request that it be read into the record, and I'm going to do that, in its entirety, in one moment. What I'd like to do, because of the hour of the evening that it is, or the morning, 1:05, 1 would hope we would not get into a de' bate on the substance of this' tonight. I think nobody has had a chance to read it and digest it. It will be out there in the pub public arena. We can all have it and take it up tomorrow if there's a need to do so. Senator BRYAN. Mr. Chairman, may Mr. Nussbaum be excused? Senator SARBANES. I want to say something, Mr. Nussbaum Senator DODD. And I do too, just 2 seconds, but go ahead. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sarbanes. Senator SARBANES. I want to thank Mr. Nussbaum. I think he's raised some very serious questions, very thought provoking, on the recusal issue, and while there's been sharp reaction from many Members here on the Committee, I think if they think about it , the implications of some of what's happening are very serious indeed. You're getting to the point, to take an extreme, a President comes in, He nominates people to office and they have to recuse themselves simply because they're nominated. Or, you know, someone says, well, I met him and we're sort of friends and now there's a tough decision here and I'm recusing myself. Now, the Altman case may be different, I think, but I think in a sense, it represents the politics of our time. Unfortunately, what's happened is there's a cynicism that's assuming if you have any connection at all, you can't make a tough independent judgment, and I think if we start down that path, it's fraught with very serious implications. I think that you've argued that case very strongly tonight and, I'm frank to say, I think it needs to be given a great deal of thought and attention. I also want to say when the panel was here from the Associate Counsels of the White House Office, they drew virtually uniform praise from Members of the Committee for their forthrightness, for their obvious ability, for their commitment, and for their understanding. 513 And I think it ought to be noted that those were people you brought into Government. They, in effect, were your people. You're the one who picked them, brought them in, and to the extent that we praised them yesterday, I think it's a reflection upon you this evening. Senator DODD. Can I just Mr. NUSSBAUM. Thank you, Senator. Senator DODD. I want to pick up and be very brief. I want to associate myself completely with the remarks of my colleague from Maryland. He's terribly perceptive most of the time, if not all of the time, only when he disagrees with me, which is far too frequently I'm afraid, but I also wanted to express my view-maybe we're becoming addicted to this process here late at night, but I think it's an extremely important debate and we have to find a forum in which to conduct it because I think there's a terrible danger in applying a standard that has such rigidity that we defeat the purpose for which the rule was established. There's also the danger of tyranny. We're raising the bar of recusal to such a level that it has the outcome determined before any consideration is given. The notion that public perception should weigh as heavily as the ethical or legal questions is a frightening thought to me. It may be a bit old-fashioned, but I was taught to believe that in public service, the standard which you use to judge your conduct is you do what's right, even if it's unpopular, even if a good part of your constituency or the public or the press doesn't like it.
VO-5 Hair Ad Outtakes
Master 194 - Tape 1 CU young woman (teen), interesting diagonal split-screen effect (makes her look like TWO women) with mirror as she sprays some sort of aerosol onto mirror, as if to show how some hair sprays can smear and dull a woman's hair. MSs of young woman in front of mirror as she sprays her hair with VO-5 and smiles at the results, except when she apparently gets a little in her eyes. MSs woman pitching Vo-5, holding it up and showing side by side comparison with Brand X aerosol.
Mogen David Wine Commercials
Mogen David Wine Commercials
Chesty Potato Chips Ads
Master 194 - Tape 2 Animated white on black line drawing of a football player, narrator asks him his secret, he takes off his helmet saying, "Nobody can tell me I don't use my head." Inside is a Twin Pack of Chesty Potato Chips. Football hits him on the head, and he stumbles over the word "Crisperfection." in describing his love for Chesty Chips. Similar animated line drawing of mad scientist/genius type, Professor Von Schnuckelpuss, who wants to discover the secret of the "Crisperfection" process, as he puts a match to the concoction in his petrie dish, it explodes. Similar animated line drawing of big game hunter and lion, Sir Cedric Claversham, "the internationally famous hunter". "They're fresh enough to tame a lion," he says, the lion meows like a domestic tabby.
Wins Farm By 144-Hole Game
Shaky dull in contrast and imagery - DOS In one of the most amazing 'Bets' ever cancelled on the fairway, j. Smith Frebee, Golfer-Broker, wins $2,500 and a half interest in a virginia plantation by playing between dawn and dusk with no '18' and 95 strokes.
The World Of Sports - Beauties Chute The Chutes
Shaky dull in contrast and imagery - DOS It's down to the sea on water toboggans for a bevy of 'down east' misses, who stage thrilling 10 M.P.H. Dashes at Morgans Beach, riding bike mermaids into cold stream pond from a 60-foot incline.
Demonstration Crowds
Shaky dull in contrast and imagery - DOS Spectacular scenes mark the huge demonstration as thousands of members of the C.T.M. Workers organization stage a colorful parade and mass meeting against newspapers unfavorable to their cause.
President Roosevelt Back In US After 3 Weeks At Sea
Shaky dull in contrast and imagery President Roosevelt, tanned and ready for fresh new deal battles after a 3-weeks fishing trip at sea, arrives on the USS. Houston at the naval flying station and is greeted by a colorful Marine Guard of Honor.
August 4, 1994 - Part 13
(01:15:07) Nobody here, nor any place in the record before, says Bernie went out and started this process as to one of the issues, the recusal issue. So I think that's important to note. I think we are in a very difficult time today in terms of how you make judgments and what powers those judgments. My colleagues, particularly my colleague from Massachusetts, has spoken to it. We are oftentimes press driven. No one wants to admit it. It is a fact of life. Terror strikes in the hearts of powerful Senators and Congressmen when the press can put a spin on something and have someone down on their knees crying. Not publicly, but it happens, so I think we have to take a look at that. And I wish you good luck. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Nussbaum, thank you very much for the time and thoughts and let us excuse you at this time. I want to now go to the deposition that was taken this evening from Ms. Hanson. We move very quickly to do that so she might have an opportunity to respond to questions, as a result of the viewing of the videotape, and what the words were that were ex 515 changed between she and Mr. Altman back at the time of February 24th when they were here testifying, What has been typed up at this hour, because. everybody has been working nonstop, we have half of the transcript which runs 14 pages, but it covers a direct discussion, in detail, that videotaped moment and it gives very explicitly her view. I suggested we just make it available to the press and distribute it to Members. It's been suggested by two Senators that it be read into the record. I'm prepared to read it into the record if that's the wish of the Committee. I'll just do it. I'm going to read it in as neutral a fashion as I can. It's 14 pages, shouldn't take too long. It's the deposition of Jean Hanson. "Whereupon Jean Hanson was recalled for deposition in the above-entitled matter and, having been previously duly sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:" I will parenthetically say we're going to start with a series of names and then the people who then make those comments. Mr. CODINHA. Let's go right onto the record. Ms. Hanson, thank you very much for returning tonight on such short notice. Mr. Pitt , I want to thank you for making your client available to us. Then the examination begins by Mr. Codinha. Ms. Hanson, my question to you is, focusing your attention on the testimony you have seen, the videotape you have seen, do you recall Mr. Bond's question and Mr. Altman's answer at the hearing? Answer: Yes. Question: Describe what you thought when you heard that question and answer, if anything. Answer: I understood the question and answer to refer to the RTC. Question: All right. And is that what you were thinking when you heard that question and answer? Answer: That's what I particular moment in time. Question: When you heard that answer, did you think that Mr. Altman's answer was complete, or incomplete, if you had determined that at the time? Answer: It was accurate to the best of my knowledge. Question: After that question and answer, if you look at the videotape, and when Ms. Ford is asked the question, when you see Mr. Altman turn and say something to you, and you appear to shake your head, which looks like a negative shake of the head, and Mr. Altman then turns around again, he says something to you and you shake your head, and I can't tell whether you said anything or not. Mr. Altman has taken a position on what you have said. What we would like to know today, and what the Senators want to know: To the best of your memory, what did Mr. Altman say to you, and what did you say to him? Answer: I don't recall Mr, Altman's exact words, but in substance he asked me whether his answer was wrong. And I don't recall what I said to him, but in substance it was that I didn't believe so. I immediately, if you note on the video, turn then to Ellen Kulka, the General Counsel of the RTC who is seated next to me, and asked her in substance whether she thought the answer was wrong; and I recall that she, in substance that she said she didn't think it was wrong. A Again, I understood all these questions to be asked and answered in the context of the RTC. That's how I understood: The questions related to the RTC and that they were answered in that context.