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August 3, 1994 - Part 2
(11:20:25) And I wonder if you would just share with us how you are going to follow this up? What are you going to do about this? Secretary BENTSEN, Well I think they are right on that. And I think there are things that we have to do. And I assume full responsibility as Secretary of the Treasury. I think, to have clear, distinct understanding when a person is wearing two hats, one is in this instance, Deputy Secretary of the Treasury, and on the other hand, Chief Executive for the Resolution Trust, and you have different sets of rules and regulations in the two. Senator MACK. What would the rules of the Treasury have been under this circumstance? Secretary BENTSEN, Well you get into quite a plethora of rules insofar as responsibilities in the Treasury. I do not think I can give you the detail of it. I would be delighted to respond to it subsequently in the record, if you would like. Senator MACK. I think it would be helpful if Secretary BENTSEN. I would be happy to. Senator MACK [continuing]. If we could have some identification of what the rules of the Treasury would have provided with respect to this issue. Secretary BENTSEN. I would be happy to. The rules on when Treasury officials can discuss or confirm the details of a criminal referral are far from clear. That is why I have asked the Justice Department, OGE, and Treasury's own Inspector General to work with the Department in developing guidelines. Senator MACK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Senator Shelby. Senator SHELBY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Senator Bentsen, Senator Bentsen, I will always call him that, I guess. Mr. Secretary, we are glad to have you over here with us again. I would like to go back into a couple of things that have been disturbing to me and I think some others on the Committee. Let's talk about, for a minute, and see if I understand, that the Office of Inspector General's report here, this is the Inspector General of the Department of Treasury, is that correct? Secretary BENTSEN. That is correct. Senator SHELBY. This investigation I believe at your request or your Secretary BENTSEN. For the Office of Government Ethics, that was my request, and then, but they have no investigative Senator SHELBY. Let's go over it again. Secretary BENTSEN. But lot me make the point and answer your question. 28 But they have no investigative powers, so they called on the Inspector General for that purpose. Senator SHELBY. OK. In other words, the Inspector General was doing the investigation, part of it? You said he had to investigate Secretary BENTSEN. Doing the investigation and, based on that, the Office of Government Ethics. But the Office of Government Ethics points out those areas that they think are important in arriving at a judgment, and directs the IG. Senator SHELBY. Let me go over the sequence of events again briefly with you here. When was this report finished and disseminated to the public? Secretary BENTSEN. Well I think it was this-I do not have the exact date, but it has been in the very last few days. And what I did with that was to release it to the public, and I believe I am correct on this, and as I understand it, the White House came over and picked up a copy at that press conference. Senator SHELBY. Did you release some of the White House before you released it to the public? Secretary BENTSEN. I released to the White House sworn depositions that had been requested by Mr. Cutler, and Mr. Cutler had the authority to come over and interview the witnesses, but yet a time constraint here in trying to get ready to testify before the Congress. And the IG had felt that the White House had been very cooperative in responding to their deposing of witnesses there, and in turn, they felt that they should cooperate to give Mr. Cutler the kind of information he needed to prepare. Now I put a safeguard on that. Senator SHELBY. What was the safeguard? Secretary BENTSEN. As I said, first, I think Mr. Cutler is an excellent attorney, a man of integrity, who has an understanding of ethics and has served, with distinction, two Presidents, and I said, I want these depositions limited to your staff and not shared with the witnesses until this situation is further developed, and the reports, all of the reports are completed. Senator SHELBY. Were these depositions shared with Mr. Altman? Secretary BENTSEN. They were not shared with him until after, my understanding, all of the witnesses had been deposed.
August 3, 1994 - Part 2
(11:25:26) Senator SHELBY. But they were shared prior to his testimony yesterday, were they not? Secretary BENTSEN. Well I would assume so. Senator SHELBY. OK. Secretary BENTSEN. The point is, I have forgotten your experience as a trial attorney, if you were. I have never been, but my understanding is that this is comparable to a trial. And my understanding is these depositions are not something that are then held in secret but they are shared. Senator SHELBY, Swapped. Secretary BENTSEN. And that is not something like sprung on them as a surprise. Gotcha, for example. Let me further state that this Committee asked me to share with them the deposing of our witnesses and that these sworn depositions then come back to this Committee. 29 I do not think the law requires that of me. But I did that because I want to comply and I want to cooperate with this Committee. And as I understand it, this Committee still has those and has them under lock and key. Senator SHELBY. Mr. Secretary, do you recall when Mr. Cutler requested these depositions? Secretary BENTSEN. No, I do not recall. I would be happy to get you the date. Senator SHELBY. Would you furnish that for the record? Secretary BENTSEN. I would be happy to. Senator SHELBY. I want to now go to the diary or parts of the diary of Mr. Steiner, who is your Chief of Staff, and get back into something that is been asked many times, and that is the recusal of Roger Altman. Did you ever recommend to Roger Altman that he should recuse himself? Secretary BENTSEN. I do not recall that I did, but I must tell you, Senator, I was very sympathetic to him, because I thought he was in a tough spot, and he well might have interpreted that. I do know that I emphasized over and over that the decision had to be his, that he knew the facts, that I did not. Senator SHELBY. Was he in a tough spot because of the wearing of two hats? I mean, it was inevitable? Secretary BENTSEN. What? Senator SHELBY. Was he in a tough spot because of the wearing of two hats, or was he in a tough spot because of the wearing of two hats plus the connections to the White House? Secretary BENTSEN. Well I think that he was in a tough spot because the question, he was being charged by some Members of Congress, of having a conflict there that had to be resolved. On the other hand, there was a decision to be made, and whether or not to recuse himself was, from his standpoint, a difficult call. I must say that when he did recuse himself, I was quite relieved, and I might say further that if I had known all the facts that I now hear, I would have certainly recused myself. Senator SHELBY. Secretary Bentsen, did you ever have a conversation that you recall in bits or pieces or in whole, where Mr. Altman talked with you about the problem of recusal? Secretary BENTSEN. Oh, yes. Senator SHELBY. He talked with you about it? Secretary BENTSEN. Yes, he did. Senator SHELBY. But you do not recall whether you recommended at that time that he recuse Secretary BENTSEN, I do not recall recommending him to do it. But once again, I very much sympathized with his problem, and he might have interpreted it that way. Senator SHELBY. Could you have recommended it to him and not recalled today? Secretary BENTSEN. I do not have total recall, and I do not really know anyone that does. Senator SHELBY. So the answer is, you do not know whether you recommended that he recuse himself or not? Secretary BENTSEN. I told you I do riot recall that. 30 Senator SHELBY. You just remembered a conversation regarding this? Secretary BENTSEN. Yes. Senator SHELBY. Are you familiar- The CHAIRMAN. Senator Shelby, excuse me, your time has run, and I do not want to cut you off. Senator SHELBY. I am sorry. I did not know my time was up. The CHAIRMAN. Excuse me. Senator Faircloth. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR FAIRCLOTH Senator FAIRCLOTH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to yield one minute of my time to Senator Mack, and then I have some brief questions. Senator MACK. Mr. Secretary, I kind of diverted you off into another direction after I asked you a question, and it had to do with, what are you going to do as an administrative matter to resolve the conflicts between Mr. Altman's testimony and that of many other officials. There are lots of people who are saying different things, which you are well aware of, and I was interested in how are you going to proceed with that as an administrative matter in solving those problems?
Hat-weaving, Net Throwing
Net Throwing
Hat-weaving, Net Throwing
Film decomposed, removed from library permanently. Hat-weaving, Net Throwing
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PREVIEW CASSETTE 218531 Joseph Kanuha Net Throwing, fishing.
Hat-weaving, Net Throwing
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PREVIEW CASSETTE 218531 "Red" Kanieha Net
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Mrs. Chung ***She's Korean but married a Chinese.
Hat Weaving
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Hat making
August 3, 1994 - Part 2
(11:30:27) Secretary BENTSEN. Well I am going to try to get better lines drawn insofar as what can and what cannot be done, what authority is in each of these two different institutions, Treasury and the Resolution Trust. I think that the Office of Government Ethics makes some good points in that regard, and what I get is a feeling in the Senate Committee that those things should be done. Senator MACK. I guess what I was really referring to in dealing with the specific issue, though, of the very different opinions and recollections of Mr. Altman, Ms. Hanson, Mr. Steiner, and Mr. Roelle? Secretary BENTSEN. Well let me say, Senator, if the question is, you know how do you get them to work together and the rest of it, and I look at you folks here and I think of my own time in the Senate, and I think of the times I was on the Senate Floor arguing with one or the other of you on the different side of an issue and really going at it, and the next day, we would find we were on the same side of a different issue. So I think they will be able to work together. Senator MACK. Well Mr. Secretary, I have a different point of view. I do not have any more time to pursue it at this time. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Thank you, Mr. Secretary, for being with us this morning. And I have a few brief questions and not really concerning you. But my concern is the lack of aggressiveness on the part of Mr. Fiske that I feel in pursuing the Whitewater and his many, multiple ties to the various members of the Administration. I feel very strongly that he maybe represents more the problem than the solution to clearing up the Whitewater problem and getting to the bottom of it. 31 And that is what I feel, and so I had one or two questions con cerning him. Had you ever met Robert Fiske prior to his appointment by Ms. Reno as Special Counsel? Secretary BENTSEN. Not to my knowledge. You know I am like you. I have met an awful lot of folks. But I do not ever remember having met him, and if I did, I apologize to him. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Are you aware that, you know of course you do know that Ms. Reno is the person that appointed him as a Special Counsel? Secretary BENTSEN. That is right. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Are you aware that Bernard Nussbaum recommended Mr. Fiske for a job with the Iran-Contra prosecutor, Lawrence Walsh? Secretary BENTSEN. No, I am not aware of that. I do know that various Members of this Committee and on both sides of the aisle, made some very commendatory statements about Mr. Fiske at the time he was chosen, and I understand he is a Republican, Senator FAIRCLOTH. I am aware of that too, and I thought more highly of him before he started the investigation than I do after he has been in it awhile. Are you aware that the Robert Fiske law firm represented the company that sold the land to the Whitewater Partnership? Secretary BENTSEN. That what? Senator FAIRCLOTH. That the Robert Fiske law firm represented the company that sold the land to Whitewater Partnership? Secretary BENTSEN. No, no. I do not know that, did not know that. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Were you aware that Nussbaum served on the same side of at least two legal cases with Robert Fiske? Secretary BENTSEN. No, I do not know that. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Were you aware that Nussbaum consulted with Robert Fiske on at least two high level appointments to the Clinton Administration? Secretary BENTSEN. No, I did not know that. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Were you aware that Robert Fiske worked with Robert Bennett, President Clinton's current lawyer on his Paula Jones problems, in a case involving the First American and BCCI? That they worked together, Bennett and Fiske? Secretary BENTSEN. Senator, you know a lot more about that than I do. Senator SARBANES. Mr. Chairman, there is no reason why the Secretary should be aware of these things. I know Senator Faircloth wants to put it in the record, and he maybe should go ahead and read it, but I do not know why he should keep dragging the Secretary, I mean, the Secretary had nothing to do with pickling. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Senator Sarbanes, if I need you to critique my questions, I will ask you to. Secretary Bentsen, this morning on the CBS morning news, Senator Bob Dole said that after watching the hearings yesterday, two things were obvious. 32 First, somebody is not telling the truth. And second, it is obvious that Robert Fiske did not do a very thorough job. Secretary Bentsen, did Robert Fiske talk with you specifically about the accuracy of Robert Altman's testimony at the January 24th RTC Oversight Hearings? Secretary BENTSEN. No, he did not. Senator FAIRCLOTH. So Robert Fiske did not talk with you about the discrepancies between the number of White House RTC contacts that he found and the number that Robert Altman reported at the hearing?
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PREVIEW CASSETTE 218531 Hula & child doing hula
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August 3, 1994 - Part 2
(11:35:50) Secretary BENTSEN. No, he did not. Senator FAIRCLOTH. Do you know of any evidence that Robert Fiske investigated to determine whether Roger Altman withheld information from Congress? Secretary BENTSEN. Senator Faircloth, I do not have that detailed information. Senator FAIRCLOTH. So the point being, so when Robert Fiske said evidence does not justify criminal prosecution of any Federal statute, have no reason to believe that he even investigated the possibility of criminal withholding information from Congress. So if he did not talk to you, he did not. That is all. I yield the rest of my time. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. What I am going to do also, I have had a couple of Members ask me, unrelated to you, Senator Faircloth, it would be helpful to them because they get absorbed in a line of questioning, and they do not see the timing clock. If they could receive a note from a staff member as their time has expired, so they will know that so they can then stop in an orderly way themselves, rather than have to be interrupted, and I ,would prefer that as well. So we will endeavor to do that and pass a note to Members as the clock expires so they know that and that they can manage the time accordingly. Senator Kerry. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR KERRY Senator KERRY. Thank you very much, Mr, Chairman. Mr. Secretary, welcome, and thank you for taking time to be with US. What was the date that the freeze was put into place when you began to collect Secretary BENTSEN. What? Senator KERRY. What was the date that you began to collect the information, a freeze on computers and documents was put in place? Do you recall approximately when that was? Secretary BENTSEN. I would say it was in March. I cannot give you the exact date. Senator KERRY. Early March, I think. I just wanted to take a moment to commend you for that. I think that our colleagues and the country ought to be aware of the meas- 33 ure, the full measure of compliance that has taken place here, even the safeguarding of documents. The reason we have a Josh Steiner diary, the reason we have these contradictory documents from people is because you saw your duty and understood that this was serious and that the Treasury Department was going to be beyond reproach with respect to that. I might say it is in direct contrast to prior experience up here. I think you and the Department are to be commended for that, and the Administration is to be commended. Last night, we received a document that had been previously redacted. The White House gave it to us. Pages of document outside of the scope but they unredacted it and made it available. I just want to commend you for it, Secretary BENTSEN. Thank you, sir. Senator KERRY. I want to ask you a few questions if I can in a couple of areas that I think are very important to the Committee, as we try to struggle to reconcile different recollections here and testimony. I also want to try to understand the standards we are dealing with. You and others have cited the report to you from the Office of Government Ethics and appropriately, you in your opening said, from this report, that there are many contacts that are troubling. You did not gloss over that, you mentioned it. There are also citations about problems between Treasury and RTC and you have mentioned those today. What still disturbs me is, I think it is a good report as far as it goes. I have read the analysis, I agree with most of the analysis, but it is a very strictly legal document, making judgments about the specific worst case scenarios of the Federal law as they apply. Let me give you an example. One of the areas they examined was the principle that employees shall act impartially and not give preferential treatment to any private organization or individual. I would assume you would agree that an employee of the Treasury Department should act impartially and not give preferential treatment to any public organization or individual where that individual might be affected by actions. Secretary BENTSEN. I think when you get into a situation that I cited earlier with the White House where, under certain conditions, it would be quite proper to give non-public information in order that their responsibilities can be discharged.